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The "Listening Chair"


mikebse2a3

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The Yamaha C7 is a fine instrument! Must be nice having your wife play. Interesting story on my Schimmel. The largest seller of Schimmel pianos in the US was Colton Piano Co. Colton also sells a house brand of Pianos that they had sourced out of China -Shafer and Sons. In an effort to get the Shafer and Sons name on concert stages, Colton had Schimmel build a small number of Pianos and brand them on the side and the Fallboard with the Shafer and sons name. In fact astute viewers would recall that the piano on the Johnny Carson show was branded Shafer and Sons but it was actually a Schimmel. I discovered this doing some piano research. It is not well known even in Piano circles. The long and the short of it is that my piano is bramded Shafer and Sons but is indeed a Schimmel which was confirmed with the factory in Germany. Because of the Shafer name on the fallboard and the side,I was able to buy this piano for less than half the going rate for Schimmels. I did have to do some finish work on the right audience facing side to remove the shafer decal. Because the pianos that were built and branded Shafer were hand picked as they were destined to concert halls and high visability venues, they are some of the finest pianos that Schimmel built at that time. So if you're ever looking for a piano and see a 6'10" shafer know that it is in actuallity a world class piano. No factory in China has ever build a piano to those measuments. You can also confirm by checking the action If its a Schimmel it will have the Renner action.

Josh

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are those special 'coustical mirrors Mike? LOL

Funny you should ask! Actually they were an experiment that worked out very good. The picture is an early one of the room and the mirrors could be moved, damped, removed in about 5 minutes for comparison of sound with and without them. I actually kept them slide together which created basically the look/illusion of a solid open window onto the performance space created by a recording's playback. And contrary to one comment[;)] I actually always kept something on the Belle so that I couldn't see myself in the mirror because it destroyed the illusion I was trying to create.

Now all I have ever read said mirrors were a no-no acoustically in a room so why did I do this?

Glad you asked![:D] No really my experience has been that if I shut my eyes or listen in the dark the illusion of the performance and imaging is always heightened! So I wanted to set a stage (ie: a space visually for the performance/imaging to be imagined in and when the lighting was adjusted down the ability to relax visually helps in the brain's ability to be fooled into believing the performers and instruments are really performing in front of the listener) that would allow the brain to relax and heighten the illusion of the performance from the recordings. I also actually used the diaphramic action of the mirrors by damping them somewhat to asist in the treatment of the acoustics of the room. This room was were I built and tried many kinds of acoustical treatment types ( ie:Polys, QRD type diffusion, different types Absorption...etc) and methods of using the treatments.

I later added some 32 sq ft. of RPG QRD style diffusers (that I built) to the back wall and the room was excellent for playing music in as well as listening to music from the Klipshorns/Belle system.

mike tn

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are those special 'coustical mirrors Mike? LOL

Funny you should ask! Actually they were an experiment that worked out very good. The picture is an early one of the room and the mirrors could be moved, damped, removed in about 5 minutes for comparison of sound with and without them. I actually kept them slide together which created basically the look/illusion of a solid open window onto the performance space created by a recording's playback. And contrary to one commentWink I actually always kept something on the Belle so that I couldn't see myself in the mirror because it destroyed the illusion I was trying to create.


So if those mirrors were not rigidly mounted, they could move a little bit and actually absorb some bass energy? I guess they would reflect treble, but I could believe that it worked well in combination with all the other treatments in the room.

Facing a wall of mirrors while being unable to see yourself could give an interesting feel to the virtual soundstage, room for your mind to roam. Interesting concept, Mike.
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Here is a picture of the room at another time. Note; the Clear Lexan Poly on the ceiling damped with a Klipsch Tee Shirt for Tuning[:P] I could adjust the arc of the poly and suspend it from the ceiling by small chains.

Mirrors were moved together at this time.

Also check out the essential Lava Lamp next to the Khorn that any music room should have[:D]

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So if those mirrors were not rigidly mounted, they could move a little bit and actually absorb some bass energy? I guess they would reflect treble, but I could believe that it worked well in combination with all the other treatments in the room.

Yes the mirrors in addition to the other treatments brought the room into a very good balance. Believe it or not but again the painted sheetrock walls can reflect just a badly as a mirror which I could easily prove by removeing the mirrors.

Absorption has its benefits but can so easily be overdone to the point of creating a lifeless and even irritating sound. The key was to use lots of diffusion with the ASC Tube Traps reflective sides turned in the proper directions and the QRD wood diffusers and even the large polys offered benefits easily heard in this room. The ASC tube traps can really clean up the bass and low midrange region but they can also in doing this expose a problem room mode that was masked before the clarity exposed it and if that happens a sharply tuned bass treatment will deal with that issue.

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So if those mirrors were not rigidly mounted, they could move a little bit and actually absorb some bass energy? I guess they would reflect treble, but I could believe that it worked well in combination with all the other treatments in the room.

Yes the mirrors in addition to the other treatments brought the room into a very good balance. Believe it or not but again the painted sheetrock walls can reflect just a badly as a mirror which I could easily prove by removeing the mirrors.

Absorption has its benefits but can so easily be overdone to the point of creating a lifeless and even irritating sound. The key was to use lots of diffusion with the ASC Tube Traps reflective sides turned in the proper directions and the QRD wood diffusers and even the large polys offered benefits easily heard in this room. The ASC tube traps can really clean up the bass and low midrange region but they can also in doing this expose a problem room mode that was masked before the clarity exposed it and if that happens a sharply tuned bass treatment will deal with that issue.

I am starting to get worried about myself! All this makes perfect sense to me !!

Maybe I'm not such a dullart, after all (!)

Rob

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Mike, with your room-treating experience and apparently well-educated ear, if you lived nearby, I'd be inviting you over to help me give my room a tune-up! One thing I've done is to set a large panel of Cor-Plas (that plastic that looks like corrugated cardboard) behind the sofa near the wall, leaning slightly forward with one edge resting on the back of the bookcase beside the panel, thinking that it should absorb a bit of bass energy, plus provide a non-parallel surface to reduce flutter echo.

It seems to work, but I'm not that knowledgeable, so some of what I've done is what should sound good, but the effects are very subtle, to my ears at least.

Tuning a ceiling mounted T-shirt is too subtle for me at this point... [*-)]

Did you have to try several locations for the lava lamp before you found the optimum spot? [;)]

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I am starting to get worried about myself! All this makes perfect sense to me !!

Maybe I'm not such a dullart, after all (!)

Rob

Hey Rob ever notice just when things make perfect sense life does something that makes you go " Heck I didn't expect that! "[:D]

Still happens to me all the time with trying to correlate what I'm hearing with what I understand about acoustics.

I've really enjoyed seeing your very nice room as well as others that have posted pictures of their listening space.

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Mike, with your room-treating experience and apparently well-educated ear, if you lived nearby, I'd be inviting you over to help me give my room a tune-up! One thing I've done is to set a large panel of Cor-Plas (that plastic that looks like corrugated cardboard) behind the sofa near the wall, leaning slightly forward with one edge resting on the back of the bookcase beside the panel, thinking that it should absorb a bit of bass energy, plus provide a non-parallel surface to reduce flutter echo.

It seems to work, but I'm not that knowledgeable, so some of what I've done is what should sound good, but the effects are very subtle, to my ears at least.

Hey Pat

My experience in acoustics to date says dealing with room mode issues and developing good diffusion are a key ingredient of any reproduction system and the long term enjoyment of that system.

Some things that are bothersome about a room's acoustics can really be recording dependent. In other words they might only be perceived or excited only when certain recordings contain the energy needed to expose them. Sharp room modes are a good example were some of them will only be noticed when say an instrument or vocal excites it and then while it is exagerated in level and dying slowly away it is also (causing a lack of clarity) due to it's masking effect on other events in the recording.(ie: think of it as noise in the room that you are trying to hear through for the detail in the music).

Diffusion in a room is important because it will generally improve the clarity, tonality and lead to a sense of envelopement while listening to music. Diffusion when done right helps to prevent perceptions of discrete reflections in the room that are often detrimental to sound reproduction.



Tuning a ceiling mounted T-shirt is too subtle for me at this point... Confused

I was teasing about the T-shirt somewhat but the poly on the ceiling was used to lessen the strength of the first reflection off the ceiling from the KHorn and again to help with adding diffusion in the room. I would say it's effect could be called subtle by some but sometimes these subtle improvements can add up to an overall increase in the enjoyment of a system that one wouldn't have expected when taken on their own.


Did you have to try several locations for the lava lamp before you found the optimum spot? Wink

Beginners Luck! just right with this first location.[:D]

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I was teasing about the T-shirt somewhat but the poly on the ceiling was used to lessen the strength of the first reflection off the ceiling from the KHorn and again to help with adding diffusion in the room. I would say it's effect could be called subtle by some but sometimes these subtle improvements can add up to an overall increase in the enjoyment of a system that one wouldn't have expected when taken on their own.


That's how I explain the effects of some of the tweaks to the system. You won't hear a 2% improvement, but do five tweaks that give individually inaudible improvements and you'll have a 10% improvement that you definitely can hear. I'm speaking in general terms, of course, for any calculator jockeys that want to split hairs on that statement.
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Is that a rack full of Carver amps I see there?

Hey all looks like I have not checked in for a couple of days. Thanks for the kind words on the room. At a minimum GaryMD, LarryC, Marty and Mike Lindsey have all had a small sample in it - not too shabby for a DIY project if I do say so myself. The reason it sounds so good is because it is partially outfitted by forum members Dean’s XOs, Bob’s Tweeters Mark’s old MKIII amps tweaked by Craig at NOS and probably the best investment Mark’s BBX with Remote. Though I must admit the case on my first BBX was killer wasn’t it Mark?

Let’s see if I can answer all the questions: Yes that is a rack of Carver TFM-25 amps, four of them. A separate amp for each pair of speakers (2X Khorn, 1 Belle, 4X Heresy) Below them is one AV-64 for the 2nd room. One of the TFM amps is mine from day one back in the early 90s the rest I scrounged on ebay. At 225WPC they might be a bit of overkill, but nothing wrong with a little solid state headroom. They do provide the correct cinema experience. Have not been to a movie theater literally in years. Yes to heresies for surrounds, see above. Yes, Colter, that is a 2.35 screen…good eye. It is the only way to go as I am sure all of you in the HT forum are stick of me droning on about. No black lines on top ever. Constant height is the way to go. Did I miss any other questions.

Here is a link to more pix if you are interested. http://mantistech.com/klipsch/RichsRoom.htm It is so hard to get a good picture because the room is so dark. Either the screen is washed out or everythign else is dark. In reality when the lights are off/down you don't see anything but the screen. You can also see some of the other gear like a Chorus center, Original couch while waiting almost 4 months for those seats to be built and shipped....don't ask. Some of my room treatments are there also. I need CP1 to visit and take some real pictures.

Lots of other nice seats out there but the chair modded with wooden support gets my vote for best so far. I love it! It is that “magic” poplar right? The kind that improves the sound like the pebbles, outlets, clocks, etc.
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Some of you guys have absolutely stunning homes, to say nothing of your magnificent systems. I'm jealous.

But then you're all working with decorators, right? (the WAF must have a positive influence somewhere).

I just furnish with plywood boxes, that's about it.

M

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Lots of other nice seats out there but the chair modded with wooden support gets my vote for best so far. I love it! It is that “magic” poplar right? The kind that improves the sound like the pebbles, outlets, clocks, etc.

I know, I've never thought of that. I'll have to experiment now. Maybe I could sell those for like $1,000 a piece. I just need to get some folks to make up tesitmonials about how it just seems to really support the sound stage. How it seems to make the music just that more more warmer with a kinda woody feel to it, and so forth! [6][8]

Also to add - your room is friggan SWEET! You are not all that far from where I live either, would love to get a chance to check your room and setup out one of these days. BTW, are you coming to that April Symphony thing that LarryC has gotten going? I'll be there.

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My all-time favorite listening chair, seen here in 1987 while I was recovering from ACL reconstruction. You can see part of a Klipsh KG4 speaker at the right edge of photo. The string hanging down is for the light switch. Since the coffee table was tied up with the motorized leg torture device, the drafting table served as my side table for the remotes for my Yamaha R8 receiver and NEC HiFi VCR (6 hours of recorded music on one HiFi VHS tape!). Not sure why I had the microcassette player handy, but as you can see, the prescription pain killers were within arms reach. I also used the couch at night, hence the sheet. Within the next year my GF (now my wife of 20+ years) had donated the chair, couch, coffee table, and the hideous pictures on the wall, only to be replaced by more fashionable, but less comfortable seating arrangements! [:D]

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