amusingisthedawn Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/the-oddiophile-ep-9 Would switching from the standard stranded cable I'm using now to solid core wire make any difference in a KLF 20? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 It might make a difference but it won't be because of the reasons Rick Schultz avers in the video. Let's say you are currently using a #10 dual-zip OFC stranded copper wire. Schults claims that the signal from the power amplifier is divided up into each of the 423 X 2 individual strands of copper and that each of the strands has a different resistance. He then claims that the individual resistances create (to quote) "time and phase distortion" of the signal. That is, the signal will arrive at the loudspeaker with 423 different time delays. BS If you watch the other videos, you'll see his company (like many snake oil merchants), produces several cures for no known audio diseases. There is one DIY freebie worth a laugh. Does your stereo soundstage seem to be drifting to the left or right? According to Schultz, all you need to do is tighten the speaker mounting screws!! Yep, checkout The Oddiophile Episode 1 to see how!! As long as you have sufficiently low DC resistance, capacitance & inductance, it matters not which type cable you use although large gauge solid wire will offer more challenges with termination and cable dressing. I would recommend using twisted pair cables to reduce the susceptibility of EMI. Lee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest David H Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Would switching from the standard stranded cable I'm using now to solid core wire make any difference in a KLF 20? I seriously doubt it, but if you want to give it a go, grab some large diameter Romex from home depot and give it a shot. I seem to recall a blind a/b test done with wire clothes hangars and premium speaker cable. Verdict being listeners could not tell the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Whether the wire is solid or stranded makes no difference in audible performance if the wire gage is the same. There will be a big difference in flexibility, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Would switching from the standard stranded cable I'm using now to solid core wire make any difference in a KLF 20? I seriously doubt it, but if you want to give it a go, grab some large diameter Romex from home depot and give it a shot. I seem to recall a blind a/b test done with wire clothes hangars and premium speaker cable. Verdict being listeners could not tell the difference. I switched out a pair of Kimber Cable 4pr's for 12 ga solid core copper wire from some romex that I had lying around. The difference was very big and for the worse. It sounded like the speakers were muffled. I was actually surprised at how much of a difference as I was not expecting any difference at all (I was very skeptical when I tried this). For reference, I used B&W 801's and Bryston amps with a Musical Fidelity front end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 ""I switched out a pair of Kimber Cable 4pr's for 12 ga solid core copper wire from some romex that I had lying around. The difference was very big and for the worse. It sounded like the speakers were muffled. I was actually surprised at how much of a difference as I was not expecting any difference at all (I was very skeptical when I tried this). "" I've heard this many times....... ""Whether the wire is solid or stranded makes no difference in audible performance if the wire gage is the same. There will be a big difference in flexibility, however."" I've also heard this many times...... I do have wires that are made to sound different and they do........Monster Sigma Retro's has a darker sound....Monster M 2.2's have a balanced sound....Standard Monster 300 strand has a brighter sound....and regular lamp cord sounds different all together from the three....coat hangers sound different as well...speaker wire made from coax wire sounds different...so does wire made from ehternet cable. But sounding different is not the same as sounding better. Most folks want a wire that has no influence in the sound...if you are one of them...do not buy a wire that is engineered to sound different. The differences are introduced by manipulating capacitance (insulation skin effect), inductance (wire windings and formers), resistance (alloy's). some folks can tell differences in wire....some can not some folks can tell differences in capacitors...some can not some folks can tell differences in air cor vs solid core inductors...some can not some folks can tell a difference in tubes...some can not some folks can tell a difference if you put speakers on metal cones...some can not some folks can tell a difference if your turntable is on a granite shelf vs a wooden shelf.....some can not etc, etc, etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Hi I have been making, tesing and selling cables for over 5 years now and have found that twisted pairs of solid core high quality copper cable in high quality teflon create an uncluttered reception. This combination let's your equipment do what it is suppose to do...like it or not.Yes it is subjective and most say there is no difference from using a coat hanger or a cable that's cost is in the thousands. The trick (as indicated in the video) is the connection at either end of the cable.Copper simple works best and when it is treated properly its oxidisation is slowed so you get more out of a connection. The trouble is that 'snake oil' has been added over the years and most of the time the buyer hasn't a clue waht they a getting thinking that the more they pay the better. If we could only cut out the BS things would be much more simpler but BS is a big part of retail and it will never die! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 very interesting... like calibrating a television, i do it so that the image is as close to what the producer wanted it to look like, not necessarily what looks best. i guess i would feel the same about music, but the bottom line to me is that the level i'm at with my equipment...no speaker wire will make me hear a difference. I tried romex, I tried monster, and I tried radioshack and honestly...the difference was so subtle that I couldn't tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Schults claims that the signal from the power amplifier is divided up into each of the 423 X 2 individual strands of copper and that each of the strands has a different resistance. He then claims that the individual resistances create (to quote) "time and phase distortion" of the signal. That is, the signal will arrive at the loudspeaker with 423 different time delays. BS So he claims that resitance effects the speed of electron flow? And people believe this crap? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Schults claims that the signal from the power amplifier is divided up into each of the 423 X 2 individual strands of copper and that each of the strands has a different resistance. He then claims that the individual resistances create (to quote) "time and phase distortion" of the signal. That is, the signal will arrive at the loudspeaker with 423 different time delays. BSSo he claims that resitance effects the speed of electron flow? And people believe this crap Does Schults even know that the electrons don't even necessarily flow "inside" the copper of the wire? A solid core wire and a bunch of stranded wires taking up the same cross sectional area and shape will behave almost exactly the same (same skin effects and everything). And does he even know that the direction of electron travel isn't even a straight path through the cable? Heck, the source of resistance in wire is the vibration of the lattice structure - causing individual electrons to veer off or reflect back in crazy angles - it's the average of all the electron movement that results in the forward current. There are billions of electrons arriving at the "wrong time" - and it'll be the same for stranded and solid wire of the same material and gauge. To be honest, I'm surprised I haven't seen devices that cool your cables - less lattice vibration means cleaner mids and highs, right? [6] The audiophool industry never ceases to amaze.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Your right Doctor Who. In RF the electron flow travels on the outside surface of the wire so they went to hollow tubes or pipes to connect up stuff. Hence Hardline coax and rectanglar waveguide. Our High power DC power supplies (30,000 volts at 6 amps) used hollow copper tubes about 3/4" to 1" in diameter to connect up capacitors, inductors, transformers, rectifiers, and other stuff. Stranded wire ia also used in conduit as it does allow bending to go around a curve. Super finely stranded wire is used for equipment that is in motion causing continuos flexing. If you are hurting for money however, coat hangers will work as long as you don't short them together. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 We have very little actual understanding of the energy transmission that we refer to as eectricity. Certainly electrons do not flow through a conductor as water does a pipe. Research on the subject requires some of the sharpest minds in physics and the most powerful super-computers. Yet some guy at a cable & interconnect company believes he's found the answers (generally by extrapolating therotical research into real-world situations). Amazing isn't it? I really wish the FTC would get involved & make some of these operations prove their marketing claims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 "So he claims that resitance effects the speed of electron flow? And people believe this crap? " The speed of the electron flow is governed by the dielectric constant of the insulation. Teflon is the fastest, with about 0.5xC vs C in vacum. This is very important at radio frequencies, but may be ignored at audio frequencies. Having said this; resistance, dielectric constant, and inductance, all affect the sound in a small way. At a trade show many years ago AudioQuest did a demo with a boombox with about 18" of the stock 20ga pvc zip cord vs some of their product. Unfortunately, many people could hear a difference. I say unfortunate because we now had to think of wire as a component of the system. As normal with all human efforts, progress is hindered as much by 'educated' people that know better, as much as by 'snake-oil-salesmen' that don't. For about the cost of a frozen pizza one could buy some solid 20ga Teflon wire and see if YOU can hear a difference. http://www.apexjr.com/wire.html Warning, Teflon is no fun to strip! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrWho Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I really wish the FTC would get involved & make some of these operations prove their marketing claims. Ditto that [Y][Y] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Schults really doesn't add much to the debate and fuddles around but I do understand it is complex.I'm with djk, something is going on when you get it right eventhough no measurement yet has discovered what. When I starting making interconnects (generally fooling around -no science, just ears) I started to research what was out there. I had produced no less than 32 combinations of copper, brass, rhondium, silver, gold with numerous dielectrics using blind testing (no alcohol or drugs to spur my 'testers' on). I remember one test where 4 out of 5 times people 'heard' a particular cable I made which towered above all else no matter what I added into the A/B mix. Music was just simply clearer with extended top/bottom response, at least to our ears. However no measurement could differentiate. 'Snake oil', I don't think so. I had spent alot of money over the years on cables that really sucked me in, now that was 'snake oil'. Everything has gone, now I just use my 'kitchen cables' and I'm a very happy boy - if it is BS to some so be it; but something is going on! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 I am not disagreeing that cables, as with any other component in the signal chain, can have an effect on the audio passing through them. That is not BS. Capacitance, inductance & resistance will alter the flow of electrons & hence the perceived sound at the other end. Oftentimes these changes are microscopically small at the frequencies we are dealing with but every action will have an impact. What I am saying is that for a cable manufacturer to bodly claim that they understand the science behind these perceived changes is foolhardy, bordering on dellusional (or dare I say fraudelent). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Not much different than politics or religion hummm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 and along those lines.... and I was wondering when this sort of stuff would do it's quarterly appearance on the Forum Electromagnetic Stabilizer Stone Recommended by Absolute Sound. From an east Indian word that means "energy," the Shakti Stone has been gathering rave reviews in the audio press. By addressing the problems of electromagnetic interference (EMI), the Shakti Stone uses ferrous and non-ferrous materials and quartz crystal oscillators in combination with a low-level magnetic field to absorb EMI energy and dissipate that energy as heat. The result is clearer and sweeter instruments and vocals, with more liquidity, detail and focus. Imaging and Shakti Stones are best used over or near the transformers of your components and can significantly improve a high-resolution system. The device is entirely passive, requiring no cables or electrical hookup. They are fully compatible with resonance tuning devices. or.... Brilliant Pebbles is an original concept of Machina Dynamica. Brilliant Pebbles capitalizes on two specific properties of mineral crystals; these properties - vibration absorption and Radio Frequency Interference/Electromagnetic Interference (RFI/EMI) absorption - are the consequence of atomic mechanisms in the crystals' highly symmetrical structures. The Original (Large) size Brilliant Pebbles now comes in clear thin plastic bag containing minerals & stones of various types, each possessing a unique, highly symmetrical crystal structure. Brilliant Pebbles originally came in glass containers which have been replaced by plastic ones. "Mini" and "Mikro" Brilliant Pebbles are much smaller in size than Large and come in clear ziplock bags that contain a wider variety of crystal types. Mikros and Minis have different applications than Large. Highly-specialized preparation & assembly procedures contribute significantly to Brilliant Pebbles' effectiveness. Brilliant Pebbles functions as a resonance control device or RFI/EMI absorber, depending on application. Some solid materials - most notably, metals & minerals - are comprised of atoms arranged in highly symmetrical, geometric structures called "crystal lattices." These structures are adopted because they constitute the lowest energy states of the atoms in the materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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Don Richard Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 "So he claims that resitance effects the speed of electron flow? And people believe this crap? " Resistance does affect the speed of electron flow through a conductor - significantly. This flow is measured in Amperes, I=E/R. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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