amusingisthedawn Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 ...my goodness...oh my goodness... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 TELEPORTATION TWEAK This one sounds interesting -- when your system sounds like crap, you push a button and get plopped down if front of someone else's system. btw -- electrons don't "flow". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Could it be called the "Rate of the cue-ball" effect? Per Bruce Rozenblit (Transcendent Sound; "Audio Reality", P20, 21): The electrons do not have to race through the conductor at the speed of light. It is the electric field, which is moving at the speed of light, that transfers energy through the conductor by raising the voltage of all the free electrons. The electrons barely move in the direction of the field. The speed of the electron current flow is called the drift velocity. The case of an alternating current, or AC, is then quite the different phenomenon one might envision once electron movement is understood. An alternating current is defined as reversing polarity periodically. Power from the electric utilities in North America has a frequency of 60 cycles per second. The current actually reverses direction at twice that rate at 120 times a second because each cycle consists of equal positive andnegative sections. Now this poses an interesting situation. We have already established that electrons migrate very slowly. With AC the electrons in the conductor oscillate back and forth, never really going anywhere because the field reverses polarity before they have had a chance drift very far. A frequency of 60 Hz has a polarity reversal time of .0083 second. If the drift speed is one inch per second, the electrons will drift only .0083 inch before they reverse direction. An audio signal is an AC signal. The difference between audio and electric power is that electric power operates over much higher voltages than are typically produced in an audio system. Also, power signals are at one frequency (60 Hz in the U.S.) while audio frequencies vary over the range of human hearing. An example using audio equipment would be a loudspeaker and a speaker cable. The cable contains a tremendous amount of free electrons, one for each atom. What actuallyhappens is that during the positive half cycle of an audio signal, the amplifier pushes electrons into the cable. Because of the electric field, electrons instantly move from the cable into the speaker. During the negative half cycle, electrons are pulled back into the amp and out of the speaker back into the cable. The process keeps repeating. Because of the huge reservoir of free electrons in the cable, it is highly likely that the electrons coming out of the amplifier never make it to the speaker. Current flow is then a constant exchange of electrons into and out of the cable. Voltage is transferred from the electrons to the voice coil, thereby liberating their energy and causing the speaker cone to move. I fear that some cable manufacturer is going to read this and claim that their cables contain special audiophile grade electrons that will improve the performance of any speaker. It wouldn’t make any difference. The electrons are merely messengers that transfer the energy of the audio signal, via their voltage, into a load. All of the electrons are the same. The transfer of energy is totally controlled by the electric field. The field is everything in transferring signals. They get "shoved out" and "sucked back in" for AC current at about 1"-2" per second in standard ETP copper alloy IIR. Wait'll this thread heads down the "slippery slope" of the great "oxygen free" copper debates!!! LOL!!![] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 AC does not flow thru wires. An electron does not begin it’s journey in the amp, pass thru the wires, thru the speakers, then back to the amp. It wiggles back and forth. At 60hz the distance of that wiggle is .00002”, This means that an electron is in basicly the same position within .00002”. Since AC does not flow thru wires, wire alignment need not be considered. Electrons in wires aligned from north to south wiggle no better than wires aligned east to west or west to east. You do not need to subtract the 1000 average miles per hour from the predicted speed of the earths rotation nor do you have to subtract the average rotational speed of the earth around the sun of 67000 miles per hour for east west aligned wires. Frequency effects the wiggle, but only in terms of the activity level, meaning, an electron at 5Khz wiggles more than an electron at 400hz, but it’s still not flowing…it’s still in basically the same position. You may ask, what does this all have to do with how wires sound, and how manufactures manipulate wire construction to intentionally change the sound of wire, the answer is nothing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 But it sure makes interesting reading; and cause for thought when examining claims that relate to "changing" how the electrons "get to the speakers". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Could it be called the "Rate of the cue-ball" effect? Per Bruce Rozenblit (Transcendent Sound; "Audio Reality", P20, 21): +1 for a recomendation of Bruce's book Audio Reality, he's a very smart & cool guy. A real engineer & scientist. Could save you a lot of money too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 AC does not flow thru wires. An electron does not begin it’s journey in the amp, pass thru the wires, thru the speakers, then back to the amp. It wiggles back and forth. At 60hz the distance of that wiggle is .00002”, This means that an electron is in basicly the same position within .00002”. Since AC does not flow thru wires, wire alignment need not be considered. Electrons in wires aligned from north to south wiggle no better than wires aligned east to west or west to east. You do not need to subtract the 1000 average miles per hour from the predicted speed of the earths rotation nor do you have to subtract the average rotational speed of the earth around the sun of 67000 miles per hour for east west aligned wires. Frequency effects the wiggle, but only in terms of the activity level, meaning, an electron at 5Khz wiggles more than an electron at 400hz, but it’s still not flowing…it’s still in basically the same position. You may ask, what does this all have to do with how wires sound, and how manufactures manipulate wire construction to intentionally change the sound of wire, the answer is nothing Great post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJkizak Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 So I guess the "potentials" are "potentialating" through the wire. JJK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InVeNtOr Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 i am going to stir the pot a little.... what do you guys think of upgraded power cords? swanky gold or silver connectors? i will say i ran my own test last weekend. i made my own power cords with monoprice 12awg wire, twisted them myself, put a very high quality shiled over it, and finished it off with "snake skin." the connectors i used were fake oyide 037 and 079 connectors. believe what you want there was a very noticable difference between the stock power cord and the new one i made. i will say this, it would only be worth paying $50 or less for the cable. it wasn't like my system sounded like crap and then magically is sounded amazing once i switched cables. it sounded more clear and higher. you were able to clearly hear the differences in the highs. heres m opinion why. simply, the shiled. i think 12awg wire is the same for all 12awg wire. snake skin does nothing. the swanky connectors just connect. i believe it's all in the shiled. i also ran a test between a stock power cord for my tv and a 14awg shieled power cord. when i swapped the cords out the guy who was helping me tune my system in couldn't believe his eyes. (Falcon20x was helping me). i would go as far as to say if you were only going to buy one "snake oil" power cord, make it your tv's. my tv showed better blacks and much more detail. we ran a test between the different connectors too, the 037 and 079. we really couldn't tell a difference. we think we heard the 037 a little higher or maybe harsher. it was very hard to tell. you have to be carefull running these tests, you might fake yourself into believing something that isn't there. do with the information what you like..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 So those of you who believe nothing is happening (as known science and current thinking is able to deomonstrate) what sort of cabes do you use...or are they just tinned coat hangers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 None of us are claiming that nothing is happening, what we're discussing is the pseudo or non-existant science around most of the maker's claims. Do I believe you can differences between cables - Yes. Do we understand why - No. So for the record; I make my own cables per various web sources including TNT Audio. My power cables are braided 12G from the inside of Wal-Mart Yardmaster extension cord mated to hospital grade Edison & IEC from Grainger. My speaker cables are the same cable but not braided. My interconects are either braided Cat-5e with a shoelace cover or straight Cat-5e core wrapped around aquarium tubing with a Tech-Flex cover. All connectors are Canare. Actually I made a new power cabler for my amp yesterday & I do believe the noise floor on the LS's is slightly lower. Today I am finishing out my balanced PSU which I hope will garner more results than any cable could! PB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 So those of you who believe nothing is happening (as known science and current thinking is able to deomonstrate) what sort of cabes do you use...or are they just tinned coat hangers? I've swapped speaker cables, ics, and power cables with no noticable difference to my ears. I own two rolls of zipcord. But I am a hypocrit. I am running http://www.the-music-cable.com/ for speaker cables and interconnects but I paid under 100 for both used. They look very nice. Why have nice equipement to just hook up ugly wire. Sure it works perfectly but it is ugly. For me it has more to do with asthetics than sound. The power cords are throw aways from a hospital nice long thick sheilded cables for free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkytype Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Great posts, everyone. If replacing your audio equipment's power cord makes a difference, just think what improvements can be made by ripping out drywall and replacing the wiring from your stereo's power receptacle to your home's breaker panel. Don't stop there, you might as well replace that dark-sounding circuit breaker feeding your stereo gear with an audiophile-rated breaker. You know, the one with the zero-crossing detector and healing crystals. That leaves getting the power company to replace that sound stage-narrowing aluminum wire with 99.9999999999% oxygen-free shielded copper cable from the pole-mounted transformer to your house. After all those tasks are complete, you'll lie awake at night wondering, "Is the output impedance of my coal-fired power generation station low enough?" As someone posted earlier (to paraphrase), we know next to nothing about the Nature of Electricity........... Lee P.S. I have found that black painted clothes hangers offer less-wrinkling and creasing of the music than the unpainted hangers. Somehow, the soundstage appears to be hanging about 12 inches from the front wall and 65-68 inches above the floor. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Richard Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Don't stop there, you might as well replace that dark-sounding circuit breaker feeding your stereo gear with an audiophile-rated breaker. You know, the one with the zero-crossing detector and healing crystals. That leaves getting the power company to replace that sound stage-narrowing aluminum wire with 99.9999999999% oxygen-free shielded copper cable from the pole-mounted transformer to your house. After all those tasks are complete, you'll lie awake at night wondering, "Is the output impedance of my coal-fired power generation station low enough?" There was a thread a few months ago on another forum where people were discussing the merits of various watt-hour meters. According to them, different brands of power meters produced audible results. LOL. The biggest change that I have heard from tweaks involved acoustic room treatments. All of this power cord stuff pales in comparison to effective room treatment. Actually I like Power Chords, as played by bands like Led Zepplin and AC/DC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amusingisthedawn Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 [H] I'm playing air guitar to your post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InVeNtOr Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 If replacing your audio equipment's power cord makes a difference, just think what improvements can be made by ripping out drywall and replacing the wiring from your stereo's power receptacle to your home's breaker panel. Don't stop there, you might as well replace that dark-sounding circuit breaker feeding your stereo gear with an audiophile-rated breaker. You know, the one with the zero-crossing detector and healing crystals. That leaves getting the power company to replace that sound stage-narrowing aluminum wire with 99.9999999999% oxygen-free shielded copper cable from the pole-mounted transformer to your house. LMAO! i really hope that wasn't directed at me, but it made me laugh anyway! heres some food for thought.....Electricity is still a Theory, we have yet to actually prove it! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lotusfool Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I replaced my 30 year old Monster Cable, which was all green and cut in unequal lengths, with Maple Shade solid core. I too was very skeptical so I replaced only one channel at first to see if I could hear a difference. The difference was huge. On the side with the old monster cable there was a very discernible high frequency noise that I was unaware of until I heard the side with the solid core, in which the noise was absent. At first I didn't like it at all. The solid core seemed to me to be removing the sheen of the female vocal I was listening to. But after many left / right turns of the balance knob which equaled Monster cable / solid core I realized the vocal was much cleaner and more clear with the solid core. The nice thing about maple shade products is if you don't like them, or feel they don't live up to their claims, just send them back for a refund! You can believe me or not. I don't understand the electronics behind all this gear, and I don't understand the physics behind the electronics, but I know and believe in what I can hear. Keep in mind this Monster wire was very old, and green, and unequal in lengths, and this alone may have been the contributing factor not the solid core vs stranded issue at all. I don't claim this was a scientific test only my experience. gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Replacing moldy, oldy anything will generally help, for sure. One of the "overlooked" issues with speaker wire and interconnects is the shielding, and how the "rats nest" that lives behind the rack is arrayed. Lay your speaker cables or interconnects across a power cord, or even better, near a small transformer (ethernet router...) and you will find out very quickly what effects are available for your listening displeasure. Especially if the wires and interconnects are really cheap. Good quality wire and interconnects do not have to be outrageous price-wise, but good quality none the less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InVeNtOr Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 that is a very good point. i tied up all my cables behind my et center, and doing so i made a huge problem for myself. with multiple power cords, speaker wire, etc running on top of each other, i inducted lots of noise. i had to shield all my power cables to clean it up. that is also the biggest over look about power cables. we spend lots of money on a power conditioner and then don't shield the power wires comming out of it. yeah, the unit removes noise, rmi, emi, and who knows what else, then we run a unshielded power wire out, where all the emi/rmi goes right back in.... like i said eariler do this test for yourself. (if you have a conditioner) plug in a shielded power cable to your tv and see the difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Good point and they are not that expensive. You can also wrap them, or if they are long enough, "daisy chain" them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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