Balmer Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 I am presently using Mark Levinson 334's with my K-horns. While the image is sharp, clear, and full, it is also has an "in-your-face" problem which makes the listening experience fatiguing. I have made the ALK upgrades, so I have done all that can be done with the speakers. The problem now is what can I do about the amplifier. I've heard that tubes make a big improvement by softening the image. If so, which brand and model should be used? What about Mcintosh transistor amps with a transformer output stage? I hear that they produce a tube-like image as well. Thanks for your advice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluesboy Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 Did you change the mid range horn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 a Mcintosh amp or any amp with a multiple tap autofomer would add quite a bit of flexibility, see attached. McIntosh Autoformer Training Page.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 27, 2009 Share Posted January 27, 2009 All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 Did you change the mid range horn? I'm using Al's wooden mid range horn which disperses the sound beautifully. I'm also using his universal crossover for another big improvement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 a Mcintosh amp or any amp with a multiple tap autofomer would add quite a bit of flexibility, see attached. The sound levels of all drivers have been adjusted and are as good as they could be. Al's crossover has transformers for that purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted January 27, 2009 Author Share Posted January 27, 2009 All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns. I have the flexibility of moving the upper two horns relative to the bass unit. I'm thinking about moving the upper horns to the sides so they will not be " in my face" as much. However, question still remains: which tube amplifier will do the best job of softening the image? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artto Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns. Wrong Dean. Two things wrong with what you just said. 1. Most modern recordings are recorded "in your face". The vocalist is almost on top of the microphone. The bass guitar is plugged directly into the mixing console. Mics might be placed in the drums or immediately above or below them, or even attached to the rims. Stringed instruments are mic'd close, often in pairs or trio. The majority of it was literally recorded "in your face". A Klipschorn (for expample) is simple doing its job of presenting it the way it is. 2. I"ll say it AGAIN. Much of the so-called harshness or in your face quality that many people seem to complain about are also caused by the way the horn interacts with the room's acoustics (which in most residential environments is "harsh"). Other factors are the horns ability to produce all the nuances of the grit and other characteristics of the recording and associated equipment. With excellent recordings AND a proper acoustic environment there is no "in your face" quality to any properly designed horn. The recording and the room are also part of the playback system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Batmans Robin Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 Balmer, Any speaker will be in your face if you sit too close to it and your chair is up too high or you're standing. [] [] Tube equipment should not bemisused as some kind of equalizer. Horn speakers are not for everyone. I've found you either love em or hate em. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns. Wrong Dean. Two things wrong with what you just said. 1. Most modern recordings are recorded "in your face". The vocalist is almost on top of the microphone. The bass guitar is plugged directly into the mixing console. Mics might be placed in the drums or immediately above or below them, or even attached to the rims. Stringed instruments are mic'd close, often in pairs or trio. The majority of it was literally recorded "in your face". A Klipschorn (for expample) is simple doing its job of presenting it the way it is. 2. I"ll say it AGAIN. Much of the so-called harshness or in your face quality that many people seem to complain about are also caused by the way the horn interacts with the room's acoustics (which in most residential environments is "harsh"). Other factors are the horns ability to produce all the nuances of the grit and other characteristics of the recording and associated equipment. With excellent recordings AND a proper acoustic environment there is no "in your face" quality to any properly designed horn. The recording and the room are also part of the playback system. Might I say that I agree with both of you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS Button Posted February 4, 2009 Share Posted February 4, 2009 All horns, even very good ones -- are "in your face". Tubes will "soften" the presentation -- but they will still sound like horns. Dean, What speak is in your avatar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seti Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 If the horns are "in your face" step back from the horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I've heard that tubes make a big improvement by softening the image. If so, which brand and model should be used? What about Mcintosh transistor amps with a transformer output stage? I hear that they produce a tube-like image as well. Getting back to the main question, I would like to add that I have narrowed the search of the tube amp to the following three: Conrad Johnson LP 70S, McIntosh MC 275, and McIntosh MC2102. At present I'm planning on biamping the K-horn bass with the Mark Levinson 334 ss amp while one of the tube amps will be used to power the upper two horns. In this way I can take advantage of the best of both ss and tube amps. Which tube amp would you recommend for the upper frequency horns? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I've heard Khorns with a MC 275. Personally, I think that is plenty of power for Khorns. Even for a big room. I'd try one of the tube amps you have picked out for a spell, before considering bi-amping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Robin Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 VRD's would be an excellent choice. There was a set for sale in the garage sale section. But you may want to buy some new ones. Later Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 Hi, I think you would need to discover your room dimensions and where you are seated as well as the 'palyback' of the room and as Arrto said there is not much you can do with the way a recording has been made but there is lots that affect how you hear it. I have been listening to speakers and building systems for the past 32 years and the Khorn gives it you you as close to a live perfomance of a recording as you will ever get, warts and all. Anyhow I have fallen in love with battery powered amps, they have the speed and clarity of a SS but the sublimeness of tube. Have you ever considered it may be your pre? I generally use a tube pre with a SS amp, best of both worlds. I have also got a few other amps but the best I have ever heard (110v/240v) is from Nelson Pass. try http://www.mother-of-tone.com/byob.htm Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 I've heard Khorns with a MC 275. Personally, I think that is plenty of power for Khorns. Even for a big room. I'd try one of the tube amps you have picked out for a spell, before considering bi-amping. Good point about biamping, however, I got this idea from a tech at Klipsch who does this with his own personal equipment. Headquarters for CJ is on the other side of the DC beltway from where I live and they no longer have a setup for listening to their equipment. Because of the economy, CJ said that no dealer on the east coast has that amp in stock for auditioning. The McIntosh dealers in this area said the same thing about their amps. I guess I'll have to ride out the depression before I can hear any of these amps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q-Man Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 I use the K-Horn base horns, and for the midrange I use the Altec 311-90 horns and the Altec 290-16K drivers. The tweeters are the JBL 2404-H models. A custom network was designed for these speakers. I experimented with a number of midrange horns and drivers before making my final desision to use the ones mentioned above. The results are a much smoother, warmer, cleaner and open sounding top end. The harshness & ringing sound of the stock Klipschorn is gone. I use 10 channels of solid state McIntosh power amps. 2) MC202 two channel power amps with 200 watts per channel. 1) MC206 six channel power amp with 200 watts per channel. The MC202 sounds nicer then the six channel power amp. I tried lesser power McIntosh amps 80 to 120 watts per channel, but at high volume listening levels the power guard circuits would light up telling me that I was clipping the amps. This occurred with bass heavy material. The McIntosh amps give me a warmer sound on top and tighter & louder bass then what I tried before. I never heard any Mark Levinson amps. I sit back about 18' from the mains and center channel. The rears are about 10' behind me, and the side surrounds are about 8' from me and slightly behind. I gave someone a demo about a year ago, and one of his comments was this. " The sound is right here." As he held his hand 1' in front of his face. This statement to me doesn't mean that the sound is harsh. My McIntosh dealer & Frank at Audio Classics both tell me that I should move up to the MC252 or 352 amps, not because I need more power, but because the sound improves again with these amps. I want to try this someday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest " " Posted February 5, 2009 Share Posted February 5, 2009 "CJ said that no dealer on the east coast has that amp in stock for auditioning. " which amp are we taliking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balmer Posted February 5, 2009 Author Share Posted February 5, 2009 "CJ said that no dealer on the east coast has that amp in stock for auditioning. " which amp are we taliking about? CJ LP-70S. The same goes for the LP-140M. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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