Jump to content

Do I really need an AMP?


edpr57

Recommended Posts

once you have checked the drivers, as mentioned above, maybe make sure, i dont know the technical term, but the 2 steel plates at the back of the speakers (where your speaker wire connects to) that connect the 2 + and - together. I cant imagine that it is not there but this would make the centre channel seem more duller if it was not there or not connected properly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Try taking off the center channels grill and make sure all drivers are working, I don't think that's right. That's a big center to sound duller than the rest ?

The grills are always off on the front and center speakers, and I always make sure that all drivers [on all speakers] are working. It it a bit strange to me that out of all speakers, the biggest and baddest one, doesn't sound at bright as the rest. My best guess is that it's not getting enough wattage as opposed to the rest which need less of it (175w for the fronts, and 150w for the rears. The center needs 200w) [:^)]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

once you have checked the drivers, as mentioned above, maybe make sure, i dont know the technical term, but the 2 steel plates at the back of the speakers (where your speaker wire connects to) that connect the 2 + and - together. I cant imagine that it is not there but this would make the centre channel seem more duller if it was not there or not connected properly


It certainly is there. I imagine that without this, the tweeter would not get any power. But yes, the plates are there since I never planned on bi-wiring or bi-amping the center (I wish I could, but the amp only does this for the front speakers).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

just because auto setup puts your speakers to LARGE doesnt mean the receiver isnt giving enough power. Most auto setups do this by design. I know audyssey and MCACC which I have used both, do this. When I run my 63s in stereo, the sound great. Im not sure what your expectations of the your RF63s are, but they are not going to blow you out of your chair with bass like a sub will. You might want to lower your expectations of them a little. My RC64 doesnt sound dull at all, even with just my pioneer elite pushing it. I have noticed that when calibrating with my spl meter, that the center is always the one needing to be turned down a little to match the rest of the setup.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My best guess is that it's not getting enough wattage as opposed to the rest which need less of it (175w for the fronts, and 150w for the rears. The center needs 200w) Huh?

A speaker's RMS rating doesn't mean that it needs that much power, it is a measurement of the maximum average wattage you should be able to safely play through it without it blowing something. Your RF-63s and your RC-64 both have the exact same sensitivity rating of 99dB@2.83v/1m. What that means is that if you send the same amount of wattage through each speaker they should each sound exactly as loud as each other. Now, lots of things will make exceptions to that such as speaker placement, listening distance from each speaker, etc.

I might suggest disabling the automatic setup if at all possible with the exception of things such as speaker distance and crossover settings. That's what I did with my Onkyo and in my room it sounds much better than when I have my receiver's Audyssey calibration on.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators

One question not asked, do you have the 64 tilted so that the horn is aiming directly toward your ears while in seating position? If not, this could be the problem.

This happened to me when I first bought the RC-7. I was quite disappointed, sounded flat. Then I angled the speaker down towards the listening area. BLAM!! Now we're talking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Your Yamaha RX-V3800 is higher up the food chain than my 663 but I believe it has the same YPAO.

Are you using front, flat or natural when you do your auto setup? I feel like YPAO guts out the bass of my system. When you go into manual setup and chose between PEQ, GEQ, and off, I think mine even sounds better turned off than with PEQ from the set up. I usually use setup to get a starting point and tweak from there.

I asked about this on the 663 forum on AVS and got this response:

Flat is the only setting that will produce an "accurate" response curve. Front can work very well with many setups, but keep in mind that YPAO may be adjusting the rears and center for anomalies that it hears from the fronts due to room conditions. Most people need to spend some time getting used to a flat response curve because it can sound overly bright at first. Especially if your speakers don't have the best high end performance, it can sound harsh or edgy. Try it and see, but give yourself a couple weeks to decide.

I'd guess so many people are used to the sound of an EQ set in an upside down bell shape curve with the lows and highs jacked way up that maybe when they hear it the way it is supposed to be it doesn't sound right to them. Sadly I'm probably one of those people.

I don't know the answer to if you need an amp or not. I've had them in the past. I just sold a Rotel and I'm waiting for my Emovita to arrive on Weds. Will your system sound better with one? Yes. Is it worth the money? Man I don't know. I know when I first took the Rotel out I missed it. Now its been a few weeks without and I think my system sounds pretty good. Not as good sound stage wise but it sounds good. I guess when I have an amp it seems like you hear more detail. Like the individual instruments and vocals separate and it just has a better sound. But is it worth the money? Again I just don't know. It depends on your financial situation and your priorities in life I guess. You can live without one thats for sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes, the fronts are actually bi-amped since the receiver allows for this configuration as long as you're not doing 7.1.


If your front speakers are "bi-amped" by using the signal from the rear surround channels, are you using the rear surround signal to drive the woofers and the front signal to drive the tweeters?

Since with most surround programs there is not much surround or rear surround sound most of the time, that could result in very little bass. Try 7-Channel Stereo and see if that makes a difference. It will send the same left-channel signal to all the left speakers and the same right-channel signal to all the right speakers, along with a combined mono signal to the centre speaker.

"Bi-amping" by using the rear channels to drive one part of the front speakers seems to be popular these days, but it's not really bi-amping, since that usually uses a pair of external amps with an active electronic crossover.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

just because auto setup puts your speakers to LARGE doesnt mean the receiver isnt giving enough power.

What I meant is that maybe since the sound coming from the center is so much lower than the rest, that the receiver might be mistaking it for a much smaller speaker. It's not that the speaker sounds completely dull, its just that without equalization, during listening tests, it's noticeable that the sound is not as bright as the rest of the speakers and this is specially noticeable during the white noise produced during the autosetup process (where each speaker should sound just about the same). But then again, maybe it's meant to sound this way [:S] I don't know, which is why I ask to see if others have experienced the same.

PS - I'm not complaining about the center sounding bad, since equalization makes up for it. Just wondering if a lack of power could limit the harmonic abilities of the speaker [:$] as stupid as that may sound to you guys (since I obviously know much less than all of you about this stuff).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One question not asked, do you have the 64 tilted so that the horn is aiming directly toward your ears while in seating position? If not, this could be the problem.

Yes Bill, it always has been, plus I just recently adjusted the speaker to make sure it accuaratly pointed towards a listeners ears.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A speaker's RMS rating doesn't mean that it needs that much power, it is a measurement of the maximum average wattage you should be able to safely play through it without it blowing something


Very interesting. Then what in the world is that 700W peak power that is stated on the specifications all about? It's a hell of a lot higher than the 175W RMS [:^)] . I wouldn't blame the auto setup, it does a pretty good job of equalizing all speakers in my opinion and seems pretty consistent when I do multiple tries. The speaker sounds great, don't get me wrong, just not as impressive without the equalization (at least to my taste), it's a great sounding speaker, very powerful, very efficient.

So in other words, the sensitivity is what determines the volume when a given amount of power is applied to it? Never knew this, Thanks wuzzer. Does this ultimately determine how loud a speaker is as well? Meaning, can I expect my RF-63's to produce 99dB, and the RT-12d 120dB?

I'm just trying to understand the basics here... [:S]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd guess so many people are used to the sound of an EQ set in an upside down bell shape curve with the lows and highs jacked way up that maybe when they hear it the way it is supposed to be it doesn't sound right to them.

I can honestly say I was one of those who couldn't do without that "upside down bell" curve. As a matter of fact, I have the logitech Z-5500's as computer speakers, and this is what my media player's equalizer is set to look like (only not as much of a curve as it use to be). Currently I do use the Flat YPAO and only modify the sub to provide a bit more of ultra low bass ( you could never have enough [:P] ), but other than that, the rest of the speakers sound fabulous.

As to priorities... I might be looking towards purchasing the Emotiva if it gets me a resonable amount of improved sound quality. I just don't want to spend $800, and hear very little to no difference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If your front speakers are "bi-amped" by using the signal from the rear surround channels, are you using the rear surround signal to drive the woofers and the front signal to drive the tweeters?

Not exactly. It's basically rerouting the power originally meant for the Back R/L, to the front speakers. So it's as if the receiver was only capable of 5.1, as opposed to 7.1, so there is no rear surround signal being sent anywhere.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'd guess so many people are used to the sound of an EQ set in an upside down bell shape curve with the lows and highs jacked way up that maybe when they hear it the way it is supposed to be it doesn't sound right to them.

I can honestly say I was one of those who couldn't do without that "upside down bell" curve. As a matter of fact, I have the logitech Z-5500's as computer speakers, and this is what my media player's equalizer is set to look like (only not as much of a curve as it use to be). Currently I do use the Flat YPAO and only modify the sub to provide a bit more of ultra low bass ( you could never have enough Stick out tongue ), but other than that, the rest of the speakers sound fabulous.

As to priorities... I might be looking towards purchasing the Emotiva if it gets me a resonable amount of improved sound quality. I just don't want to spend $800, and hear very little to no difference.

I just hooked my new Emotiva XPA-5 up tonight. I definitely think my system sounds better. I was debating pulling my rear pair of Forte IIs out of the mix and putting the KG 2.5s back there but now I'm not so sure. The extra power really woke them up!! I've read that my Yamaha 663 isn't the best with 4 ohm loads and I've also read that Forte IIs dip down to 4 ohms a lot even though they are rated at 8 ohms so maybe four of them and an Academy was just too much work for my 663 and the music lost some of the dynamics I'm hearing now.

"gets me a reasonable amount of improved sound quality" "and hear very little to no difference"--Those are such a subjective statements I don't think anyone could answer that for you. Does my system sound better now with the amp? Yes. $824 delivered to my door better? I'm not sure really. When I consider I was looking to pay twice as much for a Rotel with the same power output is seems like a deal but when you really think about $824 dollars sitting in front of you is it worth it? Again only you can answer that.

Emotiva has a 30 day return policy but don't forget you're going to spend I'm guess between $60-$70 or more to ship it back and I doubt they refund the $25 shipping they charged on the original transaction so your might be in close to $100 to try it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very interesting. Then what in the world is that 700W peak power that is stated on the specifications all about? It's a hell of a lot higher than the 175W RMS Huh? . I wouldn't blame the auto setup, it does a pretty good job of equalizing all speakers in my opinion and seems pretty consistent when I do multiple tries. The speaker sounds great, don't get me wrong, just not as impressive without the equalization (at least to my taste), it's a great sounding speaker, very powerful, very efficient.

So in other words, the sensitivity is what determines the volume when a given amount of power is applied to it? Never knew this, Thanks wuzzer. Does this ultimately determine how loud a speaker is as well? Meaning, can I expect my RF-63's to produce 99dB, and the RT-12d 120dB?

The 700 peak power is just that, peak handling capability. RMS = average. Let's say you're watching an action movie and there's a huge battle scene going on and you have your amp that can theoretically put out 700 watts peak. During the gunfire, screaming, etc. its pretty loud and your amp is putting 175 average, or continuous watts into your speaker. Then all of a sudden KABLAMO! HUGE explosion that lasts a second or two. Your theoretical amp spikes up to its maximum 700 watt output. Because your speakers have a maximum rating of 700 watts you'll be ok.

Sensitivity is just one factor that depends on the actual volume produced by a speaker but it is a large part of it. Your RF-63s will produce 99dB with just 1 watt of input!! That's why Klipsch are so awesome - they put out huge volume at incredibly low wattages input into them. Your amp/receiver doesn't have to work as hard and has more headroom to be able to deliver the transient peaks in music and movies. Your RT-12d's rating is its maximum in-room rating. The RF-63s should be able to put out close to 120dB also.

To most people 90dB is very loud, hardly anyone I know (especially my wife!) will even be in the same house as me let alone our basement theater when I'm listening at 110+dB levels!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...