kenratboy Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Mobile Homeless, I was refered to this section for you wisdom, and anyone else, please: I am getting really confused. I have heard that if you are using horn speakers (any driver) you should use a tube amp, which I consider to be weak and finicky (please correct me if Im wrong.) I am asking who, for what speakers, and why you would want to use a tube amp? What should a person (me) with NO TUBE EXPERIENCE know about a tube amp versus a transistor amp? What quality-level of pre-amp, CD player, etc. should I have before I even consider tubes? At the least, I will be using them with a pair of RB-5IIs or some other speaker with a horn tweeter. Any thoughts, suggestions, or comments are greatly appreciated. I would want to spend between $500-$800 on a stereo preamp. Ken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 Poor Mobile - he has answered these same questions about a dozen times over the last month. If you read most of the 2 channel threads posted here over the last month you will find the answers to most of your questions. Even very recent threads contain a wealth of information. Speaking of information - we could use more from you. You say what you are willing to spend on a preamp but nothing about what is budgeted for an amp or CD player. What are your musical tastes? How loud do you like to listen to your music? Do you do any Home Theatre (DVD's)? In other words - what are you trying to achieve with this system? In short - tubes just plain sound better. They provide more air around the instruments, more distance between the instruments, provide an addictive sounding midrange, and a 3 dimensional soundfield. Most tube gear these days is very reliable and really not finicky at all. New tubes are fairly inexpensive and very accessible. When I bought my first tube amp 3 years ago I only knew how to turn one on. There are different types of tube amps. For example: There is SET or Single Ended Triode - which usually come in around 4 watts per channel. There are push-pull Triodes, and these come in around 15-25 watts per channel. There are also ultra-linear designs which usually run between 40-70 watts per channel. From what I've gathered, the lower the power - the 'tubier' the sound. That is an oversimplification I'm sure but probably has some truth to it. Then there are the different sonic characteristics of the various tubes types (and various differences in sonics between manufacturers of the same tube type!) Your best bet is simply to 'lurk' here reading threads and surfing the web a little. At any rate - I'm anything but an expert and I really just wanted to save Mobile some keystrokes - poor devil. read this first - http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/scripts/d.pl?audio/faq/tubeprimer.html ------------------ deanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted February 14, 2002 Share Posted February 14, 2002 You answered my post about my SF2's, I'll answer yours about hollow-state electronics. Like you, I like metal. Particularly 80's metal..and 70's..and Zep..Ozzy...Sabbath...Megadeth.. And I like it loud, in my face. Guess what. Tubes will do that, provided one has hi-efficiency speakers :biggrin The two coupled together deliver a sound that's very unlike SS and cones n' domes. It IS brutal, if the music is brutal. Bass galore, seductive mids, and a treble that will have you grinning. Wanna have Bonzo blast your skin off? 3 watts an 99db speakers will do it :biggrin I've tried both ways. The only thing I've not tried is planars and stats. As the poster above mentioned, it's a whole diffrent ballgame. I've driven my unk's Belles with pushpull 300B's. A whopping 18 or so watts. Never used all of 'em. Right now driving SF2's with a Dynaco Stereo 70, an ultralinear EL34 tube amp. 35 watts per channel. Again, I barely use two of those watts..four, tops. Finicky? Hardly. All the maintenance I do is check the bias once a month..and dust it..if I even remember.. Try it. You may find the results quite appealing..with metal, jazz, or anything else..even Art of Noise ------------------ --- Klipsch SF2 Thorens TD145 / AT440ML turntable Dynaco Stereo 70 power Sansui CA-2000 pre Pioneer RT707 tapedeck Pioneer 4100 cd player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 14, 2002 Author Share Posted February 14, 2002 Thanks Thoriated_Tiger: I guess sound leaves the digital world once it passes through the D/A converter on my Sony 300 CD changer (yeah, I know, but I'm not rich.) Any recommendations on a sub $800 tube amp? I just want something to try that is reliable and sounds good (wow, those are really bizarre requests!) I am not going to hide the fact I listen to lots of techno (not club crap) this stuff (IDM) is made on computers and has sub 20Hz. bass and very complex soundstages, so precision and frequency response is key. Is a tube amp right for that? Even if it isnt I would like to try it out anyway. Until six months ago, I thought people who listened to tube amps were either 90 years old or stupid, Im ready to join the tubes and horns club, and get a REAL CD player, any suggestions there, to match a sub $800 tube amp? THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 There are some surprising bargains in new audio. If you can solder well, consistently, then it's even better. Ready-made: Wave8's from ASL. Little 8-watt monobloc tube amps. 200 clams each. 8 watts will drive most klipsch speakers to insane spl's. With bass. I'm more of a DIY and vintage-monger, cause I can fix the stuff if it breaks. My best suggestion: goto www.audioasylum.com and check out the tube asylum. Ask questions. You'll get answers. We have quite a collection of competent tube lovers. And no, tubes ain't for 80-year olds. They listen to Atwater-Kent radios from the 20's Tubes WILL deliver clear, crisp music with cojones, and plenty of it. They only sound 'slow' when mated to something like an 82-db speaker. With horns, they positively thrill. FWIW: Paul Klipsch voiced the K-Horn with a brooks 2A3 pushpull. That's.. tops.. 8 watts. Screaming its little triode heart out. Once you taste triodes on horns, there IS no going back. You're one of us. Tomorrow I'll post ya some links to go peruse. I dunno where you live. Pick up the phonebook, lookup 'hi fi' or somesuch. Seek out a place that sells tube audio. Go listen. Explain to the salesdroid that you're new to tubes. Tell him what you want in sound. And most importantly... Trust Your Ears! If it's not your cuppa tea, then by all means, go whichever route pleases your ears. Hell, tomorrow, after 7:00pm Central, drop by chat.audioasylum.com with any IRC client, and join #audiosylum. I'm known there as Mewp. In the Asylum BB, I"m thoriated_tiger. Why thoriated? Old tube filaments were thoriated tungsten =o) ------------------ --- Klipsch SF2 Thorens TD145 / AT440ML turntable Dynaco Stereo 70 power Sansui CA-2000 pre Pioneer RT707 tapedeck Pioneer 4100 cd player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Christ...Ole Thoriated_Tiger to the rescue! The man is obviously on a roll, why mess with it. All he said was true and then some. I even like tubes on those poor cone and domes... it is how I started on tubes. Rest assured, however, tubes and horns are a match made in heaven indeed. A tube amp is the only place you will find some old piece of garage laden crap for $75 that will smoke the bejesus out of a $1000 Sammy's HiFi Solid state 300w per channel pyro-block. The second will bring you a fair ride, not unlike taking in an action movie while on Andrenechrome. The FIRST will actually BRING THE MUSIC TO YOU and make you weep late at night, after losing $3200 at the Dog Track in Jacksonville. deang is right. Just scan down some of these threads. There has been more tube talk in the last 30 days then in the last 300! Everyone is going TUBE WILD! Losing the ever-loving solid state mind! Tubes are linear, musical, harmonically rich, and soulful. This old addage about rolled off plum-Ball bass with sugary sweet, syrup highs is the Big Myth. Break out of the Circuit City Head Lock, my little crazy Klipsch-O-holic! Once you burn the living bejesus out of your hand, there will be NO turning back! kh ------------------ Phono Linn LP-12 Vahalla / Linn Basic Plus / Sumiko Blue Point CD Player Rega Planet Preamp Cary Audio SLP-70 w/Phono Modified Amplifier Welborne Labs 2A3 Moondog Monoblocks Cable DIYCable Superlative / Twisted Cross Connect Speaker 1977 Klipsch Cornwall I w/Alnico & Type B Crossover system one online / alternate components / Asylum Listing f>s> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Ken, I'm in the same boat as you, looking for the right amp, for the right dollar. A lot of these kits require you to build them, you can get them already built though it will run you $100-$300 more. So building your amp will net you a better amp for the money. Here are some of the kits I've been looking into. Antique Sound Labs Wave 8 ($99 a block) 10 watts Monoblock SE? For $200 you can get two of these, and reviews Ive read have been very positive. I might have to get a couple of these to hold me over until I can get a nicer amp. Antique Sound Labs AQ 1003 DT - ($749) 2 x 30 Watts - Class A Push-Pull output. Nice little integrated amp, fully built. The few reviews I've seen have all been good. MH has said that some have had problems early on, but by the looks of it ASL has been good to replace any problematic amps. I think I saw someone here who had one of these and loves it. ASUSA Model K2003 ($399 Kit, $499 Built) - 4 Watts RMS per channel, Single-ended. Haven't seen much about them, but the price is nice. I'm assuming it's something along the same lines as the Paramour. Bottlehead Paramour & Foreplay - (Amp $549, Pre $149) 3.5 watts of SE 2A3 - I've heard people swear by this combo. Lots of info on that page, as well as yet another forum. Decware Zen amp Model SE-84 - ($499) 3.5w RMS SE - Again, another low watt SE tube amp that has a good following. Though some people in the bottlehead.com forums say it is inferior to the Paramour. However Decware will offer you a 30day no guilt money back guaranty, which is nice. Passion Audio i10 ($???) Identical to the AQ 1003, just in kit form, and a little cheaper if Im not mistaken. And then my personal favorite. I want one of these. Sound Valves VTA-70B (Kit $899, Built $1099) 15wx2 Class A, 35wx2 Class AB Push Pull. This is a refined replica of the old Dynakit ST-70. You will hear a lot of good things about these. At least I hear many people rave about the old Dynakits, and the VTA070B is a refined version. I hope this helps you out a little! ------------------ Barista T. Bill My Rig, Minus the new Klipsch RF-5 (Not shown) This message has been edited by Barista on 02-15-2002 at 11:16 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 WHAT, Circuit City: Bose cube speakers and bass module Cheap JVC or Kenwood receiver Mega CD changer $99 Apex DVD player or GoVideo DVD/tape player Samsung (or equivilant) 20" TV BEAT A SYSTEM LIKE THAT, HA!!! The folks on audioasylum.com are really helping me. My biggest problem is that I don't know the brands of tube equiptment, so I need help determining whether the amp is trash or treasure, if I can't listen to it. I think I am in for a good time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Thanks Barista, that list is PURE GOLD! I am not scared of the sodering gun, as long as the tubes come assembled! How tought is it to build a tube amp, as far as the construction itself is concerned? THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Yes, Tubes are assembled. It would be a real ***** to assemble your own tubes. Might require a move to Russia or China. I'm sorry I may have misread that. Those tube kits mentioned are simple to put together. Most of them have detailed pics or drawings of how to put the kit together, you don't have to be all knowing of tube design. It's good to know how to read a schematic, but not absolutely necessary. You will need a Voltmeter for testing the circuits. Get a soldering iron, and practice thrashing on some junk electronics from a thrift 'AS IS' store or something. When you can solder in your sleep, then you will be ready, you can master soldering in a hour. Read up on the subjects! THANX! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Found more.. Audio Electronic Supply AE-25 "Super Amp" ($599) - class-A, Push Pull, no-global-feedback, Super Amp delivers 15Wpc wired in triode mode. For $599, I can hardly believe it! This look very apealing! Eveywhere I look people say "Price paid $1000 in kit form" yet it's $599 on the AES website! Was there a price reduction? Moretto Tube Power Amp Kit AF-34 ($475) - 25x2 Push Pull. VERY cheap, wonder if it's any good???? Anyone have comments on any of these amps please? This message has been edited by Barista on 02-15-2002 at 03:28 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mobile homeless Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 It's an easy mistake but you are actually confusing two products with similar names. If you notice, the amp that is $599 is actually just the regular old push pull AE-25 kit, featuring EL-34 tubes at 25wpc. That is the only piece I see on the AES site that is $599. As for as I can tell, the "Superamp" is still in the 1000 range for a new kit. And this is for the base model. They have several versions. The "Superamp" is actually quite a different beast from the regular pp AE-25 EL-34 amp. kh If you guys can be patient, I will have a purportedly GREAT kit in my hands in a week or so. The ELLA kit is an excellent deal and I'll have it to compare. I will also be getting the BASIE preamp for audition and pics. Here is the link to check them out: http://www.diyhifisupply.com/ This message has been edited by mobile homeless on 02-15-2002 at 03:32 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 The "Super" amp, preamp, phono line of products are pretty good items IMHO. I am using a factory assembled Superpreamp (AES AE-3 with the DJH package)driving my Moondogs with excellent results. If I were to "roll my own" and attempt to build one I would opt for all the upgrades. You might want to start stock and upgrade later, for the learning experience and to actually hear the differences. ------------------ Ed W Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbflash Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 I don't know anything about AES amps yet. Yesterday I ordered the AE-3 pre amp. I will let you know how that sounds in my system. The price is 399.00 kit or 599.00 factory wired. That is the basic kit. I upgraded tubes, caps, rca jacks, power cord. The total cost was about 1,085. I was thinking about the Foreplay. Starts off 149.00, but if you do upgrades i think it ends up to be right around 300.00. Danny Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Oh, I see. So would the $599 AE-25 be of quality as well? That is a very attractive price. ------------------ Barista T. Bill My Rig, Minus the new Klipsch RF-5 (Not shown) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barista Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 Mobile! That Ella looks awesome! Oh wow, that is by far the best deal I've seen yeat at $479 40wx2. I can't wait to read your take of it! This is going to be awesome! ------------------ Barista T. Bill My Rig, Minus the new Klipsch RF-5 (Not shown) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 I am really getting a good idea about tube amps, but NO brands are starting to make themselves apparent, so I'm still a little confused. I am thinking about ordering the Audio Sound Labs Wave 8, for $200 a pair, just to get me started, or I may go for the gold and get the Sound Valves VTA-70B. When I bought my first pair of speakers, I almost bought some Bose 301's, but I got some JBL horn-loaded ones instead! I hope I don't make a mistake like that with a tube amp, I would find out the day after I bought it if it was trash. Why are tube amps so cheap? Is it simplicity and the fact people who buy them (at least the sub $2000 ones) don't want to be had? How important is the tube quality in a amp, or are the tubes the sound quality? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 why are some of these tube amps so cheap you ask - i believe the answer would be Chinese Slave Labor ------------------ deanG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thoriated_Tiger Posted February 15, 2002 Share Posted February 15, 2002 quote: Originally posted by deang: why are some of these tube amps so cheap you ask - i believe the answer would be Chinese Slave Labor Not to mention 1/10th or less of the parts count for a SS design... And cheap parts. No cheapie's gonna come with Jensen paper-in-oil caps and vishay resistors. But that cheapie, imo, will sound more truthful and musical than the avg sub-1000 dollar Circuit City 'receiver.' ------------------ --- Klipsch SF2 Thorens TD145 / AT440ML turntable Dynaco Stereo 70 power Sansui CA-2000 pre Pioneer RT707 tapedeck Pioneer 4100 cd player Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenratboy Posted February 15, 2002 Author Share Posted February 15, 2002 Cheap Chinease Labor? Sure, but my Sony Receiver is made in Malaysia, and it was $300, along with AMD processors which have a 100,000,000 million transistors in an area the size of YOUR fingernail. I guess it's all relative to whats being made theie. Many high-end bicycle frames are made in Taiwan, but I don't complain. If you tell someone what to build, give them the tools and training, you can make anything, cheap or expensive. ------------------------------------------------------- If you have a life (unlike me) ignore this next section: Would ANYONE here argue that they would rather have a computer made entirly out of vacuume tubes instead of "transistors"? As a tip, if a cell phone from 1996 (no text messaging or 500 caller memory) was made from vacuume tubes, it would be bigger than the Empire State Building and need many megawatts of electricity to power it. My computer: AMD Athlon: 100,000,000 transistors GeForce4 Ti 4200: 63,000,000 transistors Sound chip: 20,000,000 transistors Other stuff: 30,000,000 transistors Total: Over two hundred million transistors, how many vacuum tubes would that be? WOW! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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