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"V-Trac" Midrange Horn Upgrade For Khorns


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Man....let's get back to cool horns. Greg has made it....and we are beatin' each other up on driver options.

http://bmspro.com/Compression-Drivers.bms_compression_drivers.0.html

2" Neodymium Drivers

4592ND 2" Coaxial Neodymium compression driver, 3.5" + 1.75" VC, 150 W + 80 W AES, 118 dB 4592ND-mid 2" Middle Range Neodymium compression driver, 3.5" VC, 150 W AES, 118 dB

2" Ferrite Drivers

4590 / 4590P 2" Coaxial compression driver, 3.5" + 1.75" VC, 150 W + 80 W RMS, 118 dB 4591 2" Middle range compression driver, 3.5" VC, 150 W RMS, 118 dB

So the non coaxial is what we are discussing. Greg has offered a possible driver that he wants to initially try and recommend. Some folks are gonna get these kits in the mail. Let's see how they curve and sound......establish a base with greg's recs.....then we can go nutty with trying other stuff with them. It is obvious to me that eveyone is excited about this upgrade and asking questions to "visualize" how these can fit into their budget or existing equipment. I myself am excited about them and I don't own Khorns.

jc

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Greg,

Yes, I emailed Al and he told me also that his trachorn could not be modded to a two inch driver. The flare rate, horn length, etc would noy be right for a two inch driver. I thought that might be the case, stab in the dark on my part. I am not going to destroy my trachorns to find out.

I'm still interested in your v - tracs, I've got a cornscala projects in the works that I might use the trachorns in and then that would open a door for your v -tracs in my khorns. Thanks for all you have done for this upgrade as well as your very fine restoration work.

Guys like you, Al, Dean, Bob C. and JWC have all had a part in making the mighty khorn as well as other heritage models and offspring ( Cornscala, Jamboree, jubscala, etc) so much more special.

Thanks,

Randy

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Can I ask what horn you are using??

I use the Jabo K55A round horn. I'm thinking of switching to Greg's tractrix.

I have made five more pair of Fc260 wooden horns that will be for DIY projects. They will be just like the V-Trac, only without the grill frame, grill cloth, and the tweeter motorboards. Since the basic horns take a lot less time than doing the frames and cloth, I'm able to sell them for less. You get a pair of horns, a pair of 1"thick motorboards with bolts that mount them to the hardwood supports that also hold the horn level on a flat surface. All nail holes and other imperfections will be filled, they are completely sanded smooth, and then painted with two coats of Rustoleum satin black paint. Professional packing is included. $425 plus shipping.

The custom work that can be done to these is quite varied, and I will charge according to how much time it takes, and material cost. I can build a frame around the mouth so it can be mounted to a motorboard, install the horns in cabinets (with or without space for a tweeter), paint them in custom colors, etc... Just email me with what you're looking for and I'll give you a quote.

The webpage for the Fc260 horn is www.dcchomes.com/Fc260.html

Greg

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I am making a pair of "demo" V-Trac units for Khorn owners to try out.

Here is a link to the webpage with the information on this program, as well as the waiting list www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac3.html

Here's the scoop on the demo units. They will be very sparse on looks, only just enough wood to hold everything together! This is to keep the shipping cost down. No grill cloth, no paint, no real finish, just the bare essentials. They will sit on top of the Khorn bass bins, after the existing tops are taken off. They will have gripper feet on the bottom so they don't scratch or creep. Just a few wire changes and BAM! Instant upgrade.

They will have the BMS 4592ND-MID driver for the midrange and Beyma CP-25 tweeters, and ALK Universal 6Khz crossover networks. Everything will be wired up and ready to go. I will make a custom shipping crate for them that can be used over and over.

The idea is that I'll cover the shipping to the first person on the list (Randy - khorn#1), and he'll cover the shipping to the next person who wants to use them, and then they will cover the shipping to the next person, etc... That way no money has to change hands for shipping. As long as we're shipping in the U.S., the costs will be relatively the same for everyone. I know the cost will be different if it's going across country or nearby, but I think it's easier doing it this way so nobody has to send money to someone for shipping, it's just covered by whoever had the units last. I suppose if someone from out of the country wants to try them out, they may have to pay for some of the shipping to get them there, just to be fair to the last person that had them, and they will also have to pay full shipping to the next person.

When I first wrote this, I thought I'd only want to send them to people who had a real interest in buying them, and also had the means, but now I've changed my mind on that, I don't think it matters. If you'd like to try them out, go for it. But there are a few rules.

I want to personally talk to each person interested in the demo, so please send your name, forum name, shipping address, phone number and best time to call you by email to me and I'll put you on the list.

These units are expensive, so I want to make sure of who they are being sent to each time they are sent, so I ask that you wait for me to contact you before you send them off to the next person. I need to keep track of these things as they travel around the country.

The demo time will be two weeks. If there is nobody to send them to, I may ask you to send them back to me.

All shipping to the next party will be paid for by the current user, via UPS or Fedex, with full insurance to cover loss or damage in the amount of $2,000. You also agree to pay any insurance claim amounts to me, in the event something does happen to the demo units. Just estimating on size and weight, but I checked with UPS and the cost for shipping would be about $80 from ME to CA.

I ask anyone who uses these to please be very careful handling them, to wire them up properly, to NOT make any changes to the units, to NOT overpower them and blow the drivers, and to just generally be respectful of the investment that I've made in these units so that others can get a chance to hear these.

I encourage everyone to write about your experience with the V-Trac horn so others know what to expect.

Did I forget anything? Probably. Please email and let me know what you think of this idea.

Greg

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Greg,

Count me in on this, I manage a shipping dept so I can receive and ship easy and at a reduced cost ( perks ). When you are ready to go ahead with this we can get in touch with each other via phone and work it out.

I have very positive feedback on ebay and Audiogon for character reference and have had several transactions with Al K. over the years.

Let me know.

Thanks,

Randy

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Greg,

Absolutely put me on the list to try out the combo.... Also count me in on purchasing a pair down the road for sure. I will however want you to do some custom cabinet work for the pair I purchase. I'll be using them in conjunction with Lascala bass bins...

I'll be directly comparing this to my Trachorn / K55 / Eminence APT-200 combo I'm currently running

Craig

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There are currently four people on the list for the demo units. www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac3.html

I built the ALK Universal networks for the demo units and also a pair of them with 4.5Khz crossover point between the midrange and the tweeter to see how those sound.

It took eleven hours to build the four crossovers. I worked from noon to midnight on Saturday with a one hour break. Really nice kits that Al supplies, every detail is thought out, great instructions. I highly recommend building them yourself rather than buying them finished. I figure I made over forty bucks an hour Saturday!

Greg

post-11090-13819455917292_thumb.jpg

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Greg, I was just poking around your Website when something caught my eye. What are the wooden midrange horns atop the black Jubilee bass bins in this photo extracted from your site? They appear to be too big to be V-Trac horns.

post-22723-1381945599181_thumb.jpg

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They are called bentwood horns, and are made by:

First Octave Audio
Full name: andrew
Location: Waterloo, ON,
Canada
Forum Profile: icon_profile.gif

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/search.mpl?forum=hug&searchtext=bentwood+horns

  • Posted by
djk (M ) on April 24, 2008 at 16:10:54

In Reply to: please explain how they are constructed posted by hermanesque on April 24, 2008 at 10:18:42:

"Not sure I like those '
bentwood
'
horns
. The throat transition stinks, and they are just veneered. One of these arrived with shipping damage, so it could be seen how they were constructed during the repair proocess. It looks like they cement the veneer on to tempered Masonite, laser cut them, and then glue them up. Small amount of what looks like fiberglass run through a chopper on the back and around the ribs. What do you expect for $870 delivered?"


"We fooled around sticking some foam in the throat, but they really need to have the transition piece re-designed. "


"They look like they took a sheet of Masonite and veneered it. Then they CNC cut it out. The four corners of the horn are butt-joints with what looks like epoxy. You can see the glue oozing from the joints into the front surface of the horn. The throat transition goes from the round drive exit_bang_right into the square horn throat.


This causes some nastyness if you try and run them all they way up. They are quite narrow up top too. If I had to live with them I would fix the throat, cut them off at 5K or so and run a tweeter, and add a couple inches of expanding foam to the back sides to stiffen things up and damp them a bit. "


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I haven't even tried my Bentwood horns yet. I've got a pair of JBL 2" drivers to use on them. One of these days.

I wasn't really expecting them to cover the high frequencies, especially with the JBL's.

Too bad about the bad press for Andrew, he's a really nice guy, and he's really into horn speakers. I heard a four-way system that he built while visiting one of his friends. The system was in a man-cave huge room with an enormous movie screen. The guy had great electronics too, all tube stuff, with a nice preamp and electronic crossovers. He put on a Boz Scaggs live DVD and gave me the best seat, and it was really really nice. I didn't like the low bass, which was from two Khorn type bass bins with 18" woofers and concrete inside as part of the construction. But the rest of the system was incredible, especially the mid-bass, the best I've ever heard. He had straight horns with 15" woofers crossed at 80Hz on the low side, I think the upper was 400Hz. Snare drum hits actually hit, but there wasn't a hint of vocal mid-bass boom. Then he had the Bentwood horns and JBL baby cheeks tweeters on top.

He put another DVD in - LOL, this was the first time I had heard/SEEN Pink. Wow! That girl is . . . ah . . . (turning head sideways) . what do you say . . . . (turning head upside down) ATHLETIC!

Greg

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From a construction point of view, I don't see any glaring problems. It's not the best finish work, but everything seems sturdy and well braced, and the sides of the horns are well damped. Mine have little wedges put in at the corners of the throat that transition the round to square. I can't answer to the design or to the sound.

Greg

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These are some of the reasons that I feel much more confident designing bass horns than midrange horns. With 28-foot wavelengths, you can get away with some severe compromises. Not so with 2-inch wavelengths.


(a different) Greg

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I took a little time today and switched over the 4500Hz Universal networks with the V-Trac horn upgrade in my Khorns. To be clear, these are built exactly as the regular ALK Universal networks, only the crossover point between the mid and the tweet is 4500Hz instead of the normal 6000Hz.

My first impression was that the tweeter just sounded a bit louder, maybe like 2db or so, very small change. As I listened more, I realized that I could hear the tweeter playing just that very small bit lower in frequency. It was only noticeable to me with cymbals, and really only when the cymbals were playing out in open space. As soon as there was a mix of sounds that included the cymbals, the differences weren't as noticeable.

I was looking for the obvious difference in the high frequency sounds, which I got. But I was also listening for something to change in the midrange, and that I didn't hear at all. I don't know what that means exactly, but it's noteworthy. Probably those frequencies are just too high to make much of a difference in the midrange, or what I perceive as midrange.

Overall, very little difference, and I wouldn't say any improvement. In fact, right now, I don't know if I like it as much. But I need more time with them and I'll report back later after I've switched back and forth a few times and listened to a wider variety of music.

Greg

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