"V-Trac" Midrange Horn Upgrade For Khorns

[greg928gts]

Should I start another thread about the demo units?

Absolutely, this upgrade needs to be heard. How long is the trial? Genius idea.

Trial is two weeks. Unless you're the last person on the list with nobody else to send it to, then I don't know.

I started a thread in two-channel, should I start one in another part of the forum? I just want to make sure Khorn owners know about it, then I'll stop bugging them.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Nice work Greg great idea.

Andrew

Andrew! How are you?

BTW - the bass bins shown in Andrew's avatar are the killer mid-bass units I was talking about earlier in this thread.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Greg, what about running this horn in a 2 way? I suspect that horn driver can get up there. Where does the combo really top out? A freq. plot of your recommended driver/horn would be helpful. Has that been done?

Maybe, a slight possibility, probably with not enough high end, that on-axis this could work as a two-way, but it's really not designed for it.

JC has the test horn/driver right now, but when I sent it to him I spaced out and forgot to send bolts to attach the motorboard. I sent the bolts today, so we should have the first curves next week. Then it goes to Bob Crites to get more curves, and finally to ALK for even more curves. By the time I get it back, it should be so curved that I'll have to stand behind it to hear it.

Greg

[Coytee]

By the time I get it back, it should be so curved that I'll have to stand behind it to hear it.

Not to mention looking sooooooo sexy.... (the horns that is...not you... [:|])

[Crossman]

I just finished installing Greg's V-Trac horns this morning with BMS 4592 drivers, Beyma CP 25 tweeters and ALK universal xovers. After listening for a few hours off and on this afternoon and tonight (trying to avoid ear fatigue) I will have to say that my current configuration is a vast improvement over a stock Khorn.

Gone is the thin midrange with its unwanted HF overtones (in my opinion). The audio is (for lack of better terms) much smoother, mellower, and easier on the ears. I was able to increase the volume quite a bit before any noticable pain. The bass even seems stronger and more clear.

When I originally acquired my Khorns a few months ago, they did not live up to my expectations even after replacing all the drivers and refurbishing the networks. Anybody want to buy some slightly used drivers? Now they sound like the speakers I always thought Khorns should sound like. Nice work Greg.

I would send a picture but they look just like a normal Khorn. No one can tell the difference unless you look in the back or listen to them. If anyone is planning to make a pilgrimage to Hope, AR send me an email and I'll invite you over. I live about 25 miles from the Klipsch factory.

[greg928gts]

I would send a picture but they look just like a normal Khorn.

Thank you for the report Larry.

A small technical correction, you actually bought the Fc260 horn, not the V-Trac horn kit with the grills and cloth. I bet some here would like to see how you integrated the Fc260 horn into your Khorn tophat. You obviously saved a little money by doing that and others might be handy enough to do it themselves and save some money too.

Did you buy or build your own ALK crossovers recently, or did you have them from prior upgrades? How was your experience with buying the BMS and Beyma drivers? Any problems?

Do you have the 8ohm or 16ohm BMS drivers, and which tap settings on the ALK's do you find to be a good balance?

Do you find the tweeter is well balanced in the mix?

Greg

[Guest David H]

I just finished installing Greg's V-Trac horns this morning with BMS 4592 drivers, Beyma CP 25 tweeters and ALK universal xovers. After listening for a few hours off and on this afternoon and tonight (trying to avoid ear fatigue) I will have to say that my current configuration is a vast improvement over a stock Khorn.

Gone is the thin midrange with its unwanted HF overtones (in my opinion). The audio is (for lack of better terms) much smoother, mellower, and easier on the ears. I was able to increase the volume quite a bit before any noticable pain. The bass even seems stronger and more clear.

When I originally acquired my Khorns a few months ago, they did not live up to my expectations even after replacing all the drivers and refurbishing the networks. Anybody want to buy some slightly used drivers? Now they sound like the speakers I always thought Khorns should sound like. Nice work Greg.

I would send a picture but they look just like a normal Khorn. No one can tell the difference unless you look in the back or listen to them. If anyone is planning to make a pilgrimage to Hope, AR send me an email and I'll invite you over. I live about 25 miles from the Klipsch factory.

Nice, I suspect many more KHorn owners are soon going to be enjoying the advantages of the VTrac. Especially with the trial Greg came up with.

[Crossman]

A small technical correction, you actually bought the Fc260 horn, not the V-Trac horn kit with the grills and cloth. I bet some here would like to see how you integrated the Fc260 horn into your Khorn tophat. You obviously saved a little money by doing that and others might be handy enough to do it themselves and save some money too.

Did you buy or build your own ALK crossovers recently, or did you have them from prior upgrades? How was your experience with buying the BMS and Beyma drivers? Any problems?

Do you have the 8ohm or 16ohm BMS drivers, and which tap settings on the ALK's do you find to be a good balance?

Do you find the tweeter is well balanced in the mix?

I ordered the ALK kit and assembled it myself. The instructions were fairly straighforward. There were some parts changes that I didn't fully understand and some missing instructions (in my opinion) but I looked at pictures you had posted of the xovers and was able to replicate them without any problems. Buying the BMS drivers from Assistance Audio was a no-brainer. I purchased the 8 ohm model. As for the Beyma CP25's I got them from BMM audio for around $95.00 plus shipping http://www.bmm-electronics.com/Product.asp?Product_ID=109 . It took a few days longer to get them, but they arrived about the same time as the rest of the parts and I saved around $100.00.

And yes, I just purchased the bare horns with motorboards. My original tophats are sitting in the floor. I basically just replicated your tophat by studying the pictures on your website. I made some changes, simplified a few things, and covered them with Bob Crites purchased Klipsch grill cloth I had left over from a previous project. The changes I made were not necessarily for the better but they seem to be more expedient to me. As stated earlier, they look the same from the outside and they are sturdy.

After installing the first tophat I discovered some revisions that I needed to make which I incorporated into the second one, so in the next few days I will take the first tophat off to make those revisions and I will post some pictures to show the minor changes I made.

[Crossman]

and which tap settings on the ALK's do you find to be a good balance?

I am using the 0, 1 tap settings that you recommended in an email. Since I was essentially clueless about xovers prior to purchasing Khorns in January, I will have to do more research and study before experimenting with other setting.

[greg928gts]

Wow, thanks for the link to BMM, their prices are very good. I just ordered a pair of CP09's for my Cornwall project. I added this information to the V-Trac webpages.

I also started a fourth V-Trac webpage www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac4.html with customer feedback and comments.

Looking forward to the photos of your work.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Spent a little more time with the ALK Universal 4500Hz crossovers, and I don't like them as much as the original 6Khz ones. Maybe it's just the Beyma tweeter, or my ears, but there's more harshness from the tweeter, and the crossover point between the mid and tweeter is more audible.

Actually, if the crossover point was going to be moved, I would prefer it higher I think. Or at least I'd like to try it sometime.

Hooked up my 2A3 SET amps today. I had not tried them with the V-Trac horn yet. WOW. Partly I'm sure because of the fact that I always go "WOW" after not having them hooked up for a while, and partly because these amps are known for their wonderful midrange, and now that they're coupled with another wonderful midrange, well . . . . wow. Still not enough bass though - forever a problem with these flea sized amps. I appreciate what they offer though. This is why everyone should own multiple amplifiers! Especially when you own revealing speakers like Khorns, because you really get to hear the character of the amplifiers very clearly.

Greg

[cjgeraci]

Greg, it is not your ears but rather the Beymas. They do not like a highpass that low, and my experience with that tweeter indicates the higher you cut them on the bottom, the better they like it. The only reasonably priced tweeter that I would cut as low as 4500 hz would be a pair of Bob Crites (using the Eminence supertweeters).

Carl.

[Crossman]

The below is part of the description given for a Heritage Khorn on the Klipsch website. It says "2 inch midrange" compression driver. Am I correct in thinking that this is not the same beast as the original Khorns up until the time that they were first discontinued? What type/brand of 2" midrange driver do they use? What type of mid horn? What type xover?

• Highly efficient: 105 dB 1W / 1M
• Fully horn-loaded, full range, three-way system with a patented folded-horn 15" woofer delivers powerful low frequencies
• 2” midrange and 1” tweeter compression drivers.
• Capable of extreme output levels with ultra low distortion and astonishing dynamic range
• Available in a high-quality Cherry, Walnut or Black Ash wood veneer finish

[Blvdre]

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that 2" driver issue was brought up in another thread, and Amy admitted that it was a mistake, and would eventually be corrected.

[Crossman]

I believe (please correct me if I'm wrong) that 2" driver issue was brought up in another thread, and Amy admitted that it was a mistake, and would eventually be corrected.

I wonder if anyone has bought a pair expecting 2" drivers and gotten PO'd about it. Must be a big problem to correct info on their website.

[jcmusic]

I was just wondering what is the latest on the v-trac's?

Jay

[greg928gts]

I was just wondering what is the latest on the v-trac's?

Jay

Randy's (khorn#1) got the demo units right now and he should be reporting his impressions soon. They go to Craig next, and he'll be pairing them with LS bass bins. He's bringing them to AK Fest too. You can follow the progress at www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac3.html and the reports from people who have heard them at www.dcchomes.com/Vtrac4.html

I'm building another batch now while I have the time, just in case I get orders for them later when I'm busy building homes again. I'm such an optimist.

I'm taking a pair of the mid horns from this new batch and I'm going to build custom cabinets for them and then separate little cabinets for the tweeters. I will use these on top of my Jubilee and Jamboree bass bins to replace the K402/K69. I'll build passive networks for them and we'll see how that three-way system compares to the stock two-way Jubilee's. I'll have to sneak them in the house sometime when the wife's not there.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Here's a curve from BMS for the BMS4592ND-MID driver.

Click on the picture for a larger version.

I don't like the looks of that bump at 3Khz. Measurements taken with a CD horn.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Here's a curve from JC with the BMS4592ND-MID driver on the Fc260 horn, 2M, outside, on axis, smoothed.

Same bump at 3Khz. Not great looking at 400Hz either.

Greg

[greg928gts]

Here's a curve from Bob Crites, BMS4592ND-MID on the Fc260 (red line) compared to the K55V on the K400 horn (green line).

Notes from Bob: The test was done with exactly the same test settings. One horn was tested and immediately the other horn. The two traces were then put onto the same piece of paper.

I would ignore the dip at a bit over one khz for the K-55V driver. I don't know what that is, but I don't usually see that. Probably some reflection. Usually the K-55V with dual phase plug is smoother than this one in this test.

I think we could say that the average sensitivity of the BMS driver and your horn is about 3 to 4 db higher than the K-400/K-55V combination. There is no smoothing at all in these curves. They are completely raw.

-

My note:

Now that's a nice looking curve!

-

Greg