feeding the TSCM fever

[colterphoto1]

DI = 'direct injection', it's a little stage box typically with 2 1/4" jacks and 1 XLR, it's used for instruments like keyboards and electric bass. The instrument plugs into one jack, an output provides signal to their stage amp, while a transformer-isolated XLR is connected to the mains PA system via the main stage box.

[ClaudeJ1]

DI = 'direct injection', it's a little stage box typically with 2 1/4" jacks and 1 XLR, it's used for instruments like keyboards and electric bass. The instrument plugs into one jack, an output provides signal to their stage amp, while a transformer-isolated XLR is connected to the mains PA system via the main stage box.

Thanks Mike. Hope all is well with you.

[IndyKlipschFan]

how low does a jub go? Vs TSCM?

Hmm Maybe that big ole horn should go on the TSCM?

Sorry if this starts a rant?

[colterphoto1]

remember that TSCM, as Klipschorn, is a birurcated horn, that is the expansion is in two planes. This causes different lengths of the LF sound wave and some blurring of the image. That is the critical difference with the Jubinee bass bin where you have expansion only in the horizontal plane. Also 2x12" woofers packsa lot more whump with faster transients than a single 15".

[twistedcrankcammer]

Michael, Indy Roger,

Roger has 7!!!

I drove round trip to Baltimore Mariland Yesterday and picked up two 1985 TSCM tops and 3 very nice 1985 Theatre LaScalas.

That makes 7 tops and 9 Bass Bins, I'm friggin giddy!

A forum member picked up a KPT-684 for me in Wisconsin and is bringing the sub here to exchange it for the three LSIs.

Now check this out because this is pretty awsome, if you check back, you will find that I picked up all those TSCMs in Pittsburg on PWKs birthday. The forum member who turned me on to the two TSCM tops contacted me on PWKs birthday and I immediately called Kevin to share the information. Other than that, I have been mostly mum about this until the TSCM tops were in my possession.

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

remember that TSCM, as Klipschorn, is a birurcated horn, that is the expansion is in two planes. This causes different lengths of the LF sound wave and some blurring of the image. That is the critical difference with the Jubinee bass bin where you have expansion only in the horizontal plane. Also 2x12" woofers packsa lot more whump with faster transients than a single 15".

Michael,

I agree with you that 2x12" woofers packs a lot more whump than a single 15".

I have heard the Jubilee, and like their Bass better.

I believe that PWK set out to build something better, and would have expected no less of him than to accomplish what he set out to do.

The part I disagree on is the blurring of image due to a birurcated horn. I have heard this stated before, so I know you did not just come up with this, but my argument would be that if that is true, and since both examples use the same driver, would not the LaScala be the better sounding one of the two between it and the Klipschorn because of the Klipshorns blurring of the image due to using the birurcated horn and the La Scala Bass Bin having expansion only on a horizontal plane? I think this too be a very interesting point that calls into question that statement.

Roger

[djk]

bi·fur·cat·ed transitive verb :
to cause to divide into two branches or parts

" US4210223:




Low frequency folded exponential horn loudspeaker
apparatus with bifurcated sound path " MCM 1900

[ClaudeJ1]

remember that TSCM, as Klipschorn, is a birurcated horn, that is the expansion is in two planes. This causes different lengths of the LF sound wave and some blurring of the image. That is the critical difference with the Jubinee bass bin where you have expansion only in the horizontal plane. Also 2x12" woofers packsa lot more whump with faster transients than a single 15".

Michael,

I agree with you that 2x12" woofers packs a lot more whump than a single 15".

I have heard the Jubilee, and like their Bass better.

I believe that PWK set out to build something better, and would have expected no less of him than to accomplish what he set out to do.

The part I disagree on is the blurring of image due to a birurcated horn. I have heard this stated before, so I know you did not just come up with this, but my argument would be that if that is true, and since both examples use the same driver, would not the LaScala be the better sounding one of the two between it and the Klipschorn because of the Klipshorns blurring of the image due to using the birurcated horn and the La Scala Bass Bin having expansion only on a horizontal plane? I think this too be a very interesting point that calls into question that statement.

Roger

In 4 differen homes, I lived with 2 Khorns and a LaScala mono for 30-years, EXACTLY like PWK's own system at home, which I heard first hand.

I can tell you that because of the shorter horn path and bifurcated layout, the LaScala produces a better midbass and lower midrange definition, sacrificing the low end. I solved that problem by putting an MWM or two underneath my LaScalas. BUT what this did is make me appreciate how IMPORTANT the midbass and lower midrange is to musical detail and imaging. That led me to the Peavey MB-1 Midbass horn to replace the LaScala, along with larger horns with bigger throats up top to match. The MB-1 has no bifurcation, which leads to its' superior imaging and deatail (for other reasons also). I personally believe in straight path horns and the only place I want to see them folded is below 200 Hz., which has been supported by some big names in this industry.

By extending the upper cutoff of the horn (expansion in a single plane, but still 3 folds, like the Khorn) and using two motors with smaller cones (adding up the equivalent of a single 18" driver) Jubilee is the best compromise of all Klipsch designs and can be made into a terrific 2-way horn system with the right electronics.

So while the TSCM has incredible power density in the midrange with the Quad K-55's, the handoff from the ok corner bass bin is still weak in the 200-800 Hz. range...........so basically, I agree with Michael here.

Having said that, the TSCM is a Khorn on steroids and I can understand why you want want to have all channels firing those things, they are an amazing compromise as well...........besides, there is always EQ, eh?

If not, you can always get 7 Jubilee bass bins and sell the TSCM bottoms on here. I'm sure there would be a long line of takers.

[twistedcrankcammer]

remember that TSCM, as Klipschorn, is a birurcated horn, that is the expansion is in two planes. This causes different lengths of the LF sound wave and some blurring of the image. That is the critical difference with the Jubinee bass bin where you have expansion only in the horizontal plane. Also 2x12" woofers packsa lot more whump with faster transients than a single 15".

Michael,

I agree with you that 2x12" woofers packs a lot more whump than a single 15".

I have heard the Jubilee, and like their Bass better.

I believe that PWK set out to build something better, and would have expected no less of him than to accomplish what he set out to do.

The part I disagree on is the blurring of image due to a birurcated horn. I have heard this stated before, so I know you did not just come up with this, but my argument would be that if that is true, and since both examples use the same driver, would not the LaScala be the better sounding one of the two between it and the Klipschorn because of the Klipshorns blurring of the image due to using the birurcated horn and the La Scala Bass Bin having expansion only on a horizontal plane? I think this too be a very interesting point that calls into question that statement.

Roger

In 4 differen homes, I lived with 2 Khorns and a LaScala mono for 30-years, EXACTLY like PWK's own system at home, which I heard first hand.

I can tell you that because of the shorter horn path and bifurcated layout, the LaScala produces a better midbass and lower midrange definition, sacrificing the low end. I solved that problem by putting an MWM or two underneath my LaScalas. BUT what this did is make me appreciate how IMPORTANT the midbass and lower midrange is to musical detail and imaging. That led me to the Peavey MB-1 Midbass horn to replace the LaScala, along with larger horns with bigger throats up top to match. The MB-1 has no bifurcation, which leads to its' superior imaging and deatail (for other reasons also). I personally believe in straight path horns and the only place I want to see them folded is below 200 Hz., which has been supported by some big names in this industry.

By extending the upper cutoff of the horn (expansion in a single plane, but still 3 folds, like the Khorn) and using two motors with smaller cones (adding up the equivalent of a single 18" driver) Jubilee is the best compromise of all Klipsch designs and can be made into a terrific 2-way horn system with the right electronics.

So while the TSCM has incredible power density in the midrange with the Quad K-55's, the handoff from the ok corner bass bin is still weak in the 200-800 Hz. range...........so basically, I agree with Michael here.

Having said that, the TSCM is a Khorn on steroids and I can understand why you want want to have all channels firing those things, they are an amazing compromise as well...........besides, there is always EQ, eh?

If not, you can always get 7 Jubilee bass bins and sell the TSCM bottoms on here. I'm sure there would be a long line of takers.

Not to be nit picky here, but a driver with a radius of 8.485 has the same area as two drivers with a radius of 6 inches, so if the excursion is equal, two 12" drivers are equal to a 17" driver, still less then an 18", but much closer too an 18" than a 15".

I agree with what you said, and the reason you loose more of that upper mid bass with the Klipschorn is due to the length of the horn mouth more than the ammount of folds. We would still see that with a straight horn of equal length to both bass bins as the shorter wave forms get canceled out by the longer horn throat.

As for filling in the mid bass, I plan on building the room for this system eventually, and presently only have 4 of my TSCMs in my living room. Before I build the room, I will have the equivelent of 7 MWM doubles as I have 5 Doubles in my barn as I type this, with 4 singles to be picked up this week. I can always throw my 7 TSCM tops on top of double bin MWMs, or start picking up 402, K-69s and give that a try for a fraction of the cost of jubilees. I also have just purchased a KPT-684 that should arrive soon, and I have two Velodyne HGS-18IIs. I plan on a second KPT-684 eventually when I can find one, but can always use one of my KP-600 Bass bins or two just to play arround. Of course I will also have to purchase more amplifiers before all of this can happen as I only have 4 Nakamichi PA-7s in the house at present time. [Y]

Roger

[twistedcrankcammer]

I found out something new about TSCMs to share with the Forum, if you look at the brochure in the very first post of this thread, that was posted by speakerfritz, and you enlarge that photo, you will see the 2" throat 400 horn has three screws on either side of the horn. I own the first TSCM ever sold by Klipsch, the top section is serial number 1001 and the Bass bin is serial number 1002. I also have a top section from 1984. Both of these early TSCM tops have the 400 horn with three screws on either side. The rest of my top sections are from 1985 and 1987, these tops have 8 screws, 2 on the right, two on the left, two on top and two on the bottom section of the 400 horn. All the pictures Michael Colter took at my barn show this newer style horn. In addition, the newer horn is thicker and comes flush with the thickness of the tweeter, the earlier horn is much thinner. In addition to this, the earlier horn is more of a flat finish and shows the fiberglass strands more, while the later ones have more of a gloss finish. None of my top sections have the traditional chrome hook up cup as shown on the one in the brochure that you see on all the other pro Klipsch of this era.

Roger

[1HOHDude]

Anyone still lurking there in the weeds?   I am a new TSCM owner and am looking for others who have already invented the wheel.    Anyone with who has improved upon the rather simplistic crossover?    Changed the tweeter diaphragms to extend the frequency response?    Installed a lower resonance frequency driver in the bass bin?    

 

I would like to not re-invent the wheel if someone has already tried some of these things.

 

 

[Marvel]

I know that Roger (twistedcrankcammer) is still current on here. I also believe he still has 7 of the TSCM speakers. You can send him a PM or mail through the forums.

 

Bruce

[twistedcrankcammer]

On ‎10‎/‎2‎/‎2016 at 9:56 PM, 1HOHDude said:

Anyone still lurking there in the weeds?   I am a new TSCM owner and am looking for others who have already invented the wheel.    Anyone with who has improved upon the rather simplistic crossover?    Changed the tweeter diaphragms to extend the frequency response?    Installed a lower resonance frequency driver in the bass bin?    

 

I would like to not re-invent the wheel if someone has already tried some of these things.

 

 

 

 

1HOHDude:

 

The TSCM is a well rounded speaker, but if you really want to surpass what you have, it depends on how much you want to spend?

 

You can bypass the factory Passive Crossovers and Tri-Amp / active crossover the speaker.

 

You can Bi-Amp and replace the top hat with a K-402 horn with K-69 2 inch driver.

 

OR... you can sell them and replace them with a pair of MWM Double bins with the K-402 / K-69 setup on top.

 

The third option is the most desirable as long as you have enough real estate for that much speaker!

 

All of these options only play down to 35 Hz, so an excellent Sub Woofer is in order, preferably a horn loaded sub that plays down to at least 20 Hz or lower.

 

I presently am running four direct radiator 18" subs and I am good down to 15 Hz., but E want to eventually be completely horn loaded! 

 

Any questions, feel free to ask???    Roger

[1HOHDude]

Roger;    my plan is to replace the caps in the crossovers and then listen a bit.    Since I reapportioned the sound from the TSCMs to reduce the top a bit and thereby boost the bin I really like what I am getting.    I am willing to tinker a bit with the TSCMs but really doubt the significant extra $ associated with double bins and/or 402s  will be worth it since my hearing is less than full range.  I may end up bi-amping the TSCMs though.

 

I appreciate the thoughts.    I really do not have room for the double bins however.

 

I do have a disassembled Tuba 24" which I will probably put back together since I understand it goes to about 20 cps.

 

By the way, any secret sources of economical MWM doubles or 402 tops?   I think I may be getting the itch.

 

Anyway thanks for the advice.

[twistedcrankcammer]

1HOdude,

 

Not enough 402 horns out there to stumble across, you need to buy new, but I stumbled across a few MWM double bins a while back that I bought them for a song. I would have had less in the MWM double, K-402 setup than I do in the TSCMs!!

 

Roger

[CECAA850]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 10:34 PM, 1HOHDude said:

I do have a disassembled Tuba 24" which I will probably put back together since I understand it goes to about 20 cps.

 

Maybe 35 if you're lucky.

[djk]

-25dB at 20hz.

 

http://prosoundshootout.com/Measurements/index.php?cmd=image&sfpg=KlR1YmEyNF8yOHYuZ2lmKjU1OTU4NjM5N2YzMDY1N2UxNjBmNThiZDZkOTY3MDY3

[jason str]

The Tuba 24 needs to be high passed @ 45 Hz.

[djk]

I must point out that a vented LaScala is flatter, and goes higher and lower.

[1HOHDude]

I am told by the owner that the SB is a Tuba HT whatever that is.  He says he thinks it is better than a "24".     Do you happen to have the curve on a "HT"?    i am told it assembles into a box 36 X 36 X 24 which is why I thought it was Tuba 24.   

        

It sounds like assembly might be a waste of time if the curve you have is for it.     The  TSCM is supposed to go nearly that low.