Hifi jim Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 The Meridian is placed between the source and the DAC and it reclocks the signal and greatly reduces jitter providing the DAC a very clean signal. ....Of course, if I had Firewire, I'd look into that Behringer for only $100. You miss my point, none of the formats except FireWire have the clock included in the bitstream. The Meridian addresses the sympton not the problem. A FireWire PC card should cost way less than $50 so with the Behringer you're still looking at >$150. Much less than even $500 for a far superior solution. I understand your point, however I have no means for FireWire use as I use a Mac and wish to stream wirelessly forcing the use of optical. For those with PCs that wish to use FireWire, then great but I don't like the idea of grounding a noisy power supply in the computer with my audio system through the use of USB or FireWire. Using optical eliminates that problem while the 518 connected to any decent DA sounds like the very best cd player. I'm very happy with it and recommend the 518 to anyone using a setup similar to mine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 I understand your point, however I have no means for FireWire use as I use a Mac and wish to stream wirelessly forcing the use of optical. For those with PCs that wish to use FireWire, then great but I don't like the idea of grounding a noisy power supply in the computer with my audio system through the use of USB or FireWire. Using optical eliminates that problem while the 518 connected to any decent DA sounds like the very best cd player. I'm very happy with it and recommend the 518 to anyone using a setup similar to mine. You're streaming wirelessly & are worried about the quality of playback? You know that your bitstream is probably limited to around 128Kbs? As for the "noisy psu" I don't follow that argument at all. As I type this I have my Mac connected via a FW interface to over 48 Meyer line array sound reinforcement cabinets with not even a hint of back ground hiss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 You're streaming wirelessly & are worried about the quality of playback? You know that your bitstream is probably limited to around 128Kbs? Actually bitstream is 256Kbs. Many use the wireless set up to avoid the grounding issue I spoke of. What is wrong with wireless streaming? The sound rivals cd playback (when used with the Meridian 518)... what more could someone want? Lots of info on the web about noisy PSUs fouling up audio systems through USB and FireWire connections. The noise doesn't manifest itself as hiss as much as distortion like jitter that affects the quality of high frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 Actually bitstream is 256Kbs. Many use the wireless set up to avoid the grounding issue I spoke of. What is wrong with wireless streaming? The sound rivals cd playback (when used with the Meridian 518)... what more could someone want? As for wireless streaming equaling the sound of CD playback, I'll think it's best we just agree to differ. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hifi jim Posted March 22, 2009 Share Posted March 22, 2009 As for wireless streaming equaling the sound of CD playback, I'll think it's best we just agree to differ. Fair enough, but then you've never heard my system. I won't say that it rivals the Meridian CD player I had, but it will equal or better my Oppo for cd playback when using the 518. Yes, the 518 is that amazing! But then, you've made up your mind already... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InnerTuber Posted March 23, 2009 Share Posted March 23, 2009 I'll jump in! "As for wireless streaming equaling the sound of CD playback, I'll think it's best we just agree to differ." - I feel by definition computer stored music should be superior because there is no need for a CD player midstream to attempt multiple reads to address errors. It is already reading from an accurate source. If you can get bit perfect transfer via wireless what else do you need, a DAC to convert to analog and possibly address clocking issue regarding jitter? Money can solve that and some would argue it can't be heard anyway. From my perspective, using a 2 ch system as a point of reference why even bother with wireless unless noise is an issue from the storage device? Ok, so you want to run multiple systems ... Regarding jitter a quote from Gordon at Wavelength - "Every USB DAC you have ever heard uses Adaptive Mode USB Audio. This means the computer controls the audio transfer rate, and the USB device has to follow along updating the Master Clock (MCLK) every one millisecond. The USB bus runs at 12MHz, which is unrelated to the audio sample rate of any digital audio format (i.e. 44.1K requires a MCLK = 11.2896MHz). Therefore Adaptive Mode USB DACs must derive the critical master audio clock by use of a complex Frequency Synthesizer. Since the computer is handling many tasks at once, the timing of the USB audio transfers has variations. This leads to jitter in the derived clock, which means you are not getting the maximum sonic potential available from computer-based audio." I believe there are re-clockers available in external DACS. As I see it there are supporters for firewire, USB, TOSLINK, etc. I think USB maxes out at 24/96, firewire 24/192 or 196 I forget. Point here is that a) can anyone hear the difference between 24/96 192? - I have no real clue. gonna take a lot of cheapo storage for that collection of hi-res. As I see it KMixer in Win XP still remains an issue to deal with. MediaMonkey output plugin called waveOut gets you ASIO bypassing K-mixer using Win XP (I think). You can get there using ASIO sound cards too I would think. Running at 24 bit 96 or higher isn't going to do much if your input source is 128/256. You can certainly deliver hi-res wireless using an airport extreme base station. Back to needing lots o cheap-o storage tho ... Playback software is largely a matter of preference proividing you are delivering a perfect reproduction of the source. Why compress at all given cheap storage? Why not get a Mac and skip the ASIO, etc issues. AIFF tags and works easy. Some people hate iTunes and will go to great lengths to avoid it. PC for work, Mac for camera/music! Turn it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbeq Posted March 23, 2009 Author Share Posted March 23, 2009 Fubar is good and for now my laptop sound as good as my rega player, that will be for sale. In fact rega player is playing a little better than the fubar, but since my tt is the main, and laptop server for ambiance, will be ok with fubar! thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbeq Posted March 27, 2009 Author Share Posted March 27, 2009 Was tweaking my laptop server in vista, then discover a micro tuning for my room in vista, does anyone experience that and try it to tweak sound to room to server? A+ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbeq Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 Just upgraded the fubar, with better opamp, the Fubar got a warmer sound, and i do not regret my old cd player. Still searching for the best USB DAC available under 1k? and i do not want the over published benchmark, it did not a good job with my gear, sorry regards JzbQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KdAgain Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Just upgraded the fubar, with better opamp, the Fubar got a warmer sound, and i do not regret my old cd player. Still searching for the best USB DAC available under 1k? and i do not want the over published benchmark, it did not a good job with my gear, sorry regards JzbQ I am extremely pleased with my recently purchased EMU 0404-USB. It is a non oversampling DAC but using ASIO will play up to 24 Bit/192K files. It is not a thing of beauty - is built primarily for Pro audio work. I am using it with JRiver MC13 software on a several year old Acer laptop running XP and playing FLAC files. With MC 13 it will automatically set the sample rate based on the file. Quite impressed with what comes out of my Khorns with this setup. Especially for its very modest price. (under $250) This DAC is mentioned on several audio forums, usually with excellent reports. Not sure if it's okay to link to other forums here - is it? If you would like to PM me I can give you links. Good Luck, Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aj01 Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Philip, I'm a little confused by your post on the clocking in USB vs firewire. Aren't the data transfer rates of both formats high enough that it really doesn't matter if you're clocking or not? As long as you have no other devices on the chain - both firewire and USB can transfer maybe 10 cd's in the amount of time it would take to play one song? I'm kind of stuck in that the amount of data being sent is so much smaller than the capacity of the interface (assuming you don't have too many devices on the line or too many neighbors causing packet loss on your wireless). Can you point me to an article that explains this in more detail? Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbeq Posted May 16, 2009 Author Share Posted May 16, 2009 KD is it a diy DAC or there's a web site where we could purchase it? http://www.stevesmusic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=925 ok i found a reseller for your DAC-USB thing here in montreal and it is cheap 225$CAD and it is also a solution for my needle drop search? now i only need to found the software, you we're talking(writing) about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KdAgain Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 KD is it a diy DAC or there's a web site where we could purchase it? http://www.stevesmusic.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=925 ok i found a reseller for your DAC-USB thing here in montreal and it is cheap 225$CAD and it is also a solution for my needle drop search? now i only need to found the software, you we're talking(writing) about? Great price - I bought from them, but recall paying a bit more! It's not DIY - it's fully assembled with everything you need. Remeber it does not have "Audiophile" packaging, nor the pricing. It's marketed to the Pro Audio world where you often get a whole lot more bang for the buck! The player software is Jriver Media Center 13 and is available at jrmediacenter.com (Sorry don't see how to put a link here.) They also have a very helpful forum which is their only support I believe. Think the price is about $40 US and very well worth it. Next winter I plan to digitize my vinyl and I believe the 0404 USB will be a big help there. BTW, be sure to get the 0404-USB, the plain 0404 is a PCI card. It's less money, but not the same animal at all! (Your link is for the correct one.) Rod Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 I'm a little confused by your post on the clocking in USB vs firewire. Aren't the data transfer rates of both formats high enough that it really doesn't matter if you're clocking or not? 2 seperate subjects. Clocking is the transmission of a digital clock signal embedded in the audio bitstream. This allows the receiving device to synchronize with the sender resulting in a more accurate transfer of the data. Both USB & FW will send the data at the rate at which it is playing up until the limit of the chipsets in the interface. In other words, a 16 bit word will be transfered at 16 bit, a 24 bit at 24. It's easy to confuse real-time data transfer such as audio or video playback with bulk data transfer such as is sent to a hard drive during a back up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Lot of discussion here of things that I am blessed by being unable to hear, thank goodness. I cannot imagine being able to hear the difference between IEEE1398 and USB. That takes some serious hearing development! Right up their with jitter and timing errors. However, as always, I cannot know what another hears nor deny their ability to do so. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philipbarrett Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Oh I know you could. The horns in our babys are not kind to a harsh D to A conversion as these errors tend to appear right in the upper midrange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted May 16, 2009 Share Posted May 16, 2009 Oh I know you could. The horns in our babys are not kind to a harsh D to A conversion as these errors tend to appear right in the upper midrange. Indeed, that I can and have heard. But that's from crappy ADACS, and I don't have any. I have an OPPO CD player, M-Audio, Card Deluxe, and ESI Pro soundcards which are quite transparent in thier digital work. Point is you have to go out of your way to get a crappy ADAC these days. The technology is pretty mature and as long as you do it according to the recipe what comes out is identical to what went in, at least to my ears. The parts to do this are not expensive and more expensive parts don't do a better job. It's sort of like the computer wars, which are pretty much over, unfortunately, with the PC winning and the Mac allowed to live to prevent anti-trust action. Fact is, a picture edited in Photoshop on a 200.00 PC will look precisely like one edited on a thousand dollar Mac. Bits is bits. The issues I hear remain the classic ones...amps, loudspeakers, rooms, and engineering of the source material. I am not only not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, I am trying to use my way too many decades of digital experience to minimize the angst of those who just want to listen to music and be assured they are feeding their beloved amps and and speakers a worthy signal. Bottom line...there are motherboards available now with on board ADACs quite capable of producing a better signal than our amps and speakers can reproduce, at least IMHO. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbeq Posted May 17, 2009 Author Share Posted May 17, 2009 So since i have 3 compaq laptop for 1 macintosh laptop, i need to replace kmixer for mediamonker? if i understand correctly? So driver is the key, best driver gave best music than? i use itunes will it work ok on vista and media monks key? thanks, regards, JzbQ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bliss53 Posted May 18, 2009 Share Posted May 18, 2009 I started with an m-audio stereophile for a dac and for needledrops, the sound was very good but not up to the level of my hybrid cd player. I upgraded to a used wavelength brick. Oh my. This dac is very nice and it will out perform my cd player with lossless files. It does not do well with low bit rate files. It is away getting an upgrade right now and I look forward to the promised improvement. I also have read very good things about the v dac mentioned previously for $299. I heard the $900 entry level wavelength in a store a couple week ago and it sounded very good but i was hard to have a frame of reference because it was not my system or source material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kudret Posted May 19, 2009 Share Posted May 19, 2009 Pete, I am very interested to hear more about the wavelength products. I want to setup a quiet music server with a touchscreen monitor and rip all my CDs in FLAC, but it has to be better than my Krell CD-DSP mkII. Kudret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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