Is SACD technology redundant for two-speaker-systems?

[Steve Conatser]

Okay, I'm confused. I get the understanding that a primary reason for SACD sound quality is the ability to embed music recordings within six channels (versus the normal 2 channels of regular CDs). My question: To get the most of SACD technology, do you require the same number of speakers as there are number of SACD-channels that have music embedded in it?

Can a system that only uses two Heresy III speakers be able to make the most of a SACD disk and its six channels of music?

[Schu]

I am just a newbie here, but one thing I do know is that sacd's sound great on my onkyo sr806 and heresey conbination... so much so that I am buying as many sacds as possible and investing in a SP506 dvd player that will have sacd and dvda capabilities at 192hz in 24bit depth.

I just got Fragiles by yes in sacd on friday... I played it this morning on my ps3... awesome sound quality. I cant wait for 192hz and 24 bits

[LarryC]

I have a caution -- SACDs can sound wierd on 2-channel CD players, like some of the ensemble wasn't mic'd. I think you have to be able to switch between SACD and 2-ch playback, to solve it. With my simple 2-channel CDP, I try to avoid SACDs.

[Steve Conatser]

Thank you gentlemen, for the contrasting answers, both of which are useful to know.

I may be wrong that SACD employs "multi-channel" recording. But if SACD does utilize a multi-channel recording, it would lead the consumer to believe that several speakers would need to be hooked up to the SACD player. However, what adds to this confusion, is the fact that Yamaha's RX-797 is configured to be SACD-ready, yet it's only a two-channel stereo receiver. Who's on First?

[lo123]

Steve -

SACD discs can come in several varieties.

Some are SACD, only, and won't play on standard CD players or in computer hard drives. Some are SACD stereo only. Mobile Fidelity has many of these, remastered classic albums mostly. I have only two, Blood Sweat and Tears first and third albums. They sure sound good in stereo. But there is no multi-channel mix on those discs. I really don't miss the multi-channel and knew they were stereo, only, when I bought them. One thing most of these discs do have in common is a fairly high price at around $25 for many titles.

I have all of the Moody Blues discs from back in the late 60s and 70s (well, there are seven discs, I guess that's most of them) on SACD. Some of the remixes say they are 5.1 but they vary from 4.0 to 5.1 depending on the disc and sometimes by song. They do, however, sound outstanding. And, they come with a second layer (I believe that's the correct description) with a stereo mix,. That "layer" I have ripped to .wma files and enjoy on my Zen media player. Also sounds really good. The layer that plays on standard players makes the disc a hybrid disc. My Dave Brubeck Take Five disc is SACD, but is not hybrid, so I can only play it on SACD players. When you see SACD discs on a website like Acoustic Sounds or Elusive Disc, there are usually options for different types of SACD discs. The hybrid ones say do. The non-hybrid SACDs don't mention that feature since they don't have it.

I have a couple other discs which really spotlight the 5.1 mixes. Pink Floyd DSOTM is pretty amazing in 5.1. It is also SACD with a stereo layer.

Elton John Goodbye Yellow Brick Road sounds really great in 5.1. And it sounds great in stereo, which is a selectable option. However, that disc in my collection is a DVD-Audio disc, another format which requires a special player. Usually SACD players also have DVD-Audio capability, but not all do. While DVD-Audio discs can offer a stereo playback or multi-channel, they do not play on a computer drive, so I don't think they can be ripped to a compressed audio file. At least I don't know how to. Also, some discs are available in SACD or DVD-Audio. If the SACD is hybrid you get the stereo layer playable on standard players. However, some DVD-A discs (Mark Knopfler Sailing to Philadelphia for one), come with both a DVD-A disc and a two channel standard CD.

Hope this helps more than confuses. I really like the SACD and DVD-A discs. Problem is finding the money to buy them!

[Schu]

Thats a pretty complete and thurough description.[Y]

FYI... the SP506 Onkyo unit I talked about above is only 200$ shipped from B&H... i would skip the purchase if I could find that teh PS3 was giving me all that I wanted out of the sacds... but I can not get a straight answer on play back, so I am going to make the dedicated player purchase.

[LarryC]

If the SACD is hybrid you get the stereo layer playable on standard players.

I think that's where I ran into trouble with a funny-sounding mix on my strictly 2-channel CDP.

[garymd]

I use a Sony 555ES SACD player for 2-channel only. There seems to be a significant improvement in sound quality when playing in the SACD mode vs. the Stereo mode or "layer" on the hybrid discs although I couldn't tell you in technical terms why this is so. I used to have 5.1 capability through my HT receiver but it could never match the 2-channel sound through my tube amp.

Folks have been saying for a couple years now that SACD technology is dying but they continue to produce more and more titles. I have about 50-75 SACDs in my collection and most all sound great. Some of the best sounding discs in my collection are Elton John's entire library, most of Dylan's albums (Blood On The Tracks in particular is just amazing), Steely Dan's Gaucho, just about any jazz album on the Columbia label (Brubeck's Time Out, Monk's Straight, No Chaser and Mingus, Ah Um come to mind). Analogue Productions (Acoustic Sounds private label) has done an amazing job with some of their SACDs such as Art Pepper's So In Love and Bill Evan's A Waltz For Debbie, and for classical fans, the RCA Living Stereo releases, most of which were originally released from the mid-fifties to early sixty's sound wonderful and are primarily just 2 or 3 channel SACD mixes.

I also have a really nice Eastern Electric MiniMax tube CD Player that blows away the Sony for non-SACD titles, but if a disc has an SACD layer, the Sony seems to top the better MiniMax. If I had to do it again, I'd probably try to find a nice player that does both SACD and DVD-A. I don't think the technology is dying as fast as was once thought.

[colterphoto1]

Thanks Larry, that really helps me. I just bought some SACD's from a Forum member and can't get any output from my Yamaha DVD-S2500 into my Yamaha RXV2600, I think I need to use the multi-channel out/ins because the DVD player is doing the decoding, right?

I wonder (not going to try this until I get things working) if there is some 'downmix' option where you could play a multi-channel SACD on a 5.1 player but listen in 2 track with hopefully nothing missing (like listening to a DVD movie in stereo mode).

Michael

[lo123]

Michael -

Not an expert on this but I'll try not to intentionally provide any mis-information.

Searched for some specs/info on your Yamaha DVD-S2500 player and it appears to be SACD and DVD-A compatible. Without digging deeper into the Yamaha specs, here is how my Denon 2900 works, bought with very much gratitude from Frzninvt here on the forum and running like a top!

I have run dedicated 6 channel analog connections between the Denon 2900 and my Denon AVR1804. Does your AVR have a similar 5.1 analog input? Bought two sets of reasonably priced component video cables from Walmart, RCA Digital Plus, 9 foot length. Blue Jeans cables sells better stuff but I had a budget to meet..... Anyway, with this setup, I configured the Denon AVR to recognize the 5.1 analog input from the Denon 2900 disc player as the appropriate external input, assigned it to an input channel so the remote would know where to find it, etc. So, I am completely separated from the various digital outputs of the Denon 2900 for this application. You might want to explore this for your setup. I completely avoided the digital coax and optical outputs of the 2900 since the analog was all I wanted.

With this setup, a Blood Sweat and Tears MOFI SACD in two channel stereo shows that the Denon 2900 is outputing two channels - only - and it sounds great thru my RF35s. Not as impressive as with your selection of speakers, but WAF is stretched even with RF35s!

With Pink Floyd DSOTM in 5.1 SACD, the 2900 shows all five channels active - and my RF-35, RC-35, R-5800's plus SVS PC Ultra cylinder agree - all channels are indeed active!

Hope this helps somewhat. The setup menus on the DVD player can be another area of confusion, so be sure you have setup for the appropriate outputs, etc.

For multi-channel SACDs and DVD-A discs, there is a learning experience for the .1 channel in terms of matching the player and the AVR. Recommend you search some old threads for this, something about boosting the .1 channel as I remember. Until reconciled, I had unimpressive LFE. But now that this has been resolved, the .1 channel is alive and welll.......

Hope this helps.....

[Schu]

I found out the PS3 plays sacd's fine... but no one can still tell me for sure if they are being down sampled. I am pretty sure they are and despite sounding much better than regular cd's(a/b'ed the), I still want more. On to a dedicated player for me.

I think many are not realizing that sacd's and dvda's will play on many players already out in the market... but that signal is being down sampled, that defeats the purpose IMHO.

[Klewless]

Does your manual tell how / when down sampling occurs? I believe that is an issue only on the player's digital output. With the analog (usually 2-channel) outputs sample rates are not involved.

[Schu]

I may be inclined to agree... but your DAC is really important in this mater(obviously). I am still learning myself about all this stuff.

[Steve Conatser]

I found out the PS3 plays sacd's fine... but no one can still tell me for sure if they are being down sampled. I am pretty sure they are and despite sounding much better than regular cd's(a/b'ed the), I still want more. On to a dedicated player for me.

I think many are not realizing that sacd's and dvda's will play on many players already out in the market... but that signal is being down sampled, that defeats the purpose IMHO.

... And here is another point that I could use clarification on ... but in the other direction than the one you mentioned ... Can I play my regular audio CDs on an SACD player?

Here is a cut'n'paste from Crutchfield's description of the Yamaha RX-797 SACD: "stereo playback for SACDs, CDs, CD-Rs & CD-RWs, and MP3 & WMA CDs". I was just wanting earshot-verification ... of what my eyes are reading ... so my question is: Can I play my regular audio CDs on an SACD player, and would they actually sound better than on a normal CD player?

PS: what does down-sampled mean?

[Schu]

Yes you can play CD's on SACD player... they are actually DVD players.

Check out the onkyo sp506 dvd player. It samples 24bit @192hz and has three Burr-Brown DACs, and wil play most all your favorite formats... $215 shipped on B&H. I wont be using the dvd myself. I would even be getting this unit if someone could confirm playback specifications on the ps, but no one can so.

Downsampling is the process of reducing the rate at which something is sampled. eg 2.8mhz is more than three times the rate of 44khz,which is where most player reside.

The bit depth is also broken down into more pieces on sacd/dvda so in total you are looking at a technology that has more resolution... more bit depth and at a higher rate.

Think of it as an X and Y axis...

If bit depth is Y, on a CD this vector is broken down into 16 pieces...on SACD it is broken down into 32 pieces or bits..

The X axis is the rate at which an object is moving along or being sampled... CD will move along at 44hz... SACD will move along ar 2.8mhz

So you can see that each individual picture being taken at any single instant during music sampling has much more resolution