Another opinion about cables...

[maxg]

Actually yes - and I can repeat that experiment for anyone that wants it demonstrated.

This is the first time I have admitted that.....with the whole cable thing being so debated.

[Don Richard]

If someone says that he saw an extraterrestrial vehicle in the sky, or that he was abducted by aliens in a flying saucer, I will not believe them. If they claim to have seen Bigfoot I will not believe them. If they say Joseph Newman has invented a machine that can generate more power than than it takes to run that machine, I will not believe them because Joseph Newman is a fraud and what he claims to have done is impossible in this space-time continuum.

I don't remember who used these examples first, but there are major differences between cables/speaker wire and the references made above. First, people who believe in Bigfoot and UFOs are the minority

And you seriously think that the majority of people actually believe that wire makes any difference? No one that I have shown the ads and the claims for high-end audio cables believes they will make any difference. These people include sound system professionals, NASA engineers, industrial engineers, audio enthusiasts, and the general public. The proprietor of the local audio salon even admitted to me that the speaker wires that he makes work at least as well as the Audioquest and Nordost cables he sells.

Or perhaps, the minority, the few who have not tried for themselves, or who have not spent time listening and tweaking their systems are the ones who are mistaken?

I have spent quite a bit of time over the years listening and making improvements to my system. I focus on items that will provide an audible improvement. I use the best cables in the world - I make them myself, cut to exact length, and make them from quality parts. They connect the boxes that do make a difference in performance. There is no cabling change at this point that will improve my system in any way that I can tell.

The majority believe in high-end cables and the minority do not? Jim, you really should get out more.[]

[jacksonbart]

Lets talk more about pennies

[Hifi jim]

I use the best cables in the world - I make them myself, cut to exact length, and make them from quality parts.

If all cables are capable of transmitting a signal, why do you bother making something special? What difference should your "quality parts" make? Why not use zip cord with bare ends?

The majority believe in high-end cables and the minority do not?

Perhaps you should reread the original link. According to an online survey conducted by Stereophile, 54% felt cables made a difference, while 12% felt there was no difference. I'm not sure how many people they surveyed, but how many did you?

[Don Richard]

Lets talk more about pennies

That's about all you will have after buying high-end cables.

[Don Richard]

I use the best cables in the world - I make them myself, cut to exact length, and make them from quality parts.

If all cables are capable of transmitting a signal, why do you bother making something special? What difference should your "quality parts" make? Why not use zip cord with bare ends?[

I make them so that they will be the exact length with no extra, and because they are cheap. I use good, not necessarily the best, parts so they will hold up.

?

The majority believe in high-end cables and the minority do not?

Perhaps you should reread the original link. According to an online survey conducted by Stereophile, 54% felt cables made a difference, while 12% felt there was no difference. I'm not sure how many people they surveyed, but how many did you?

The opinions of the kool-aid drinkers do not count with me.

[Mallette]

Actually yes - and I can repeat that experiment for anyone that wants it demonstrated.

This is the first time I have admitted that.....with the whole cable thing being so debated.

There you go...a credible observer. Max said it, I believe it, that settles it.

Dave

[fini]

Lets talk more about pennies

I wish I had a nickel for every time you've said this.

[fini]

What kind of horse is this?

[mike stehr]

Art by Basil Wolverton.

[DU73]

Interesting thread, makes great reading.

I think a person’s belief in hi end cables might be more than the actual result, I’m talking about cost versus performance in percentage. Like for example if rca cable cost $20 and a high end one cost $80 then this is a 400% increase in price. Will you then receive in return a 400% increase in quality and performance?

[Mallette]

Interesting thread, makes great reading.

I think a person’s belief in hi end cables might be more than the actual result, I’m talking about cost versus performance in percentage. Like for example if rca cable cost $20 and a high end one cost $80 then this is a 400% increase in price. Will you then receive in return a 400% increase in quality and performance?

No. While I am of the "if it has the integrity to carry the signal it's
good enough" persuasion, I also do not doubt the claims of those who
percieve a difference. That said, the question of cost is of decreasing returns at all points in the audio spectrum. A 50k Rockport is NOT going to be 50 times better than my VPI. Probably not even twice as good.

Now, to a total, raving lunatic, cost is no object, gotta have the best audiphile, a DETECTABLE improvement may well be worth 10 times the price...even if nobody else detects it.

Go figure. Audiophiles have never been accused of rational thinking.

Dave

[Zen Traveler]

I agree with your premise, but bring it back to the real world and you're right back to my comment about polishing turds.

I'd like to try this story, courtesy of Dean Sluyter, as told in "The Zen Commandments" ----

When I was ten years old I was a devoted coin collector. Pennies, the most worthless of all coins, began to reveal an ever greater value and beauty. Through my focused devotion and love for them, I started to see aspects I had never seen before: this one was Extremely Fine condition because all the lines of the wheat stalks were sharp and clear, that one was rare because it had the designer's initials (VBD) on the reverse. My enhanced perception of the coins in turn fed my deeper love of them, which further enhanced my perception, which in turn fed my love....

I think the story is self explanatory and needs little explanation as to how it relates to the art of paying attention to small things.

*** life is too short to spend that much time examining GD coins.

I have no opinion on expensive cables but do live a Zen lifestyle and found this exchange explains why my post count is down. ;-)

[Mallette]

No. While I am of the "if it has the integrity to carry the signal it's
good enough" persuasion, I also do not doubt the claims of those who
percieve a difference. That said, the question of cost is of decreasing returns at all points in the audio spectrum. A 50k Rockport is NOT going to be 50 times better than my VPI. Probably not even twice as good.

Now, to a total, raving lunatic, cost is no object, gotta have the best audiphile, a DETECTABLE improvement may well be worth 10 times the price...even if nobody else detects it.

Go figure. Audiophiles have never been accused of rational thinking.

Dave

I respectfully disagree Dave! To whatever extent having any hobby is rational - and that may be debateable - most audiophiles I know make pretty good decisions about improving their systems toward their personal tastes. Is it rational for a guy to pour $175,000 into restoring an antique car that you can't even drive to the store? Is it rational to buy a few pounds of paint and canvas for $1M? But, that's what hobbyists do. I think here again, we have the argument about "money" as if money was the central point in all this. As the saying goes, if ya got it, flaunt it. What's more irrational, paying $25 for a used 3-cent stamp to add to your beautiful stamp collection, or paying $450 for a cable to add to your stereo? Or buying your wife a pair of $10,000 clear stones to hang off her ear?

Yes, you can build a perfectly useful stereo with a 40 year old Pioneer and some 50 year old speakers, and a hank of zip cord! YIPEEE! I think everyone understands that - everyone recognizes that. But that's just not a fun hobby for many people. The car buff with tons of disposable money just isn't that that satisfied by pounding the dents out of a 1980 pinto and spray painting it.

Fully agree, Mark. If I had anything over 10 million in assets, my system would have all the voodoo stuff as well. Why not? Even if I couldn't hear it my audiophile guests might, and that's just part of being rich...being able to spoil your friends!

I am talking about those of us (and I've been guilty) who are in debt, barely making ends meet and stuff away a few dollars here and a few dollars there to get that MC transformer that is going to make life beautiful again. Know what I mean?

Audiophilia is not a passion but a mania to many of us and rational thinking is saved for just how far to lie to the IRS about the value of the old Pioneer receiver and Yamaha speakers you donated to the church choir room so you could hear the awful playback even better.

Dave

[maxg]

No. While I am of the "if it has the integrity to carry the signal it's good enough" persuasion, I also do not doubt the claims of those who percieve a difference. That said, the question of cost is of decreasing returns at all points in the audio spectrum. A 50k Rockport is NOT going to be 50 times better than my VPI. Probably not even twice as good.

Now, to a total, raving lunatic, cost is no object, gotta have the best audiphile, a DETECTABLE improvement may well be worth 10 times the price...even if nobody else detects it.

Go figure. Audiophiles have never been accused of rational thinking.

Dave

I respectfully disagree Dave! To whatever extent having any hobby is rational - and that may be debateable - most audiophiles I know make pretty good decisions about improving their systems toward their personal tastes. Is it rational for a guy to pour $175,000 into restoring an antique car that you can't even drive to the store? Is it rational to buy a few pounds of paint and canvas for $1M? But, that's what hobbyists do. I think here again, we have the argument about "money" as if money was the central point in all this. As the saying goes, if ya got it, flaunt it. What's more irrational, paying $25 for a used 3-cent stamp to add to your beautiful stamp collection, or paying $450 for a cable to add to your stereo? Or buying your wife a pair of $10,000 clear stones to hang off her ear?

Yes, you can build a perfectly useful stereo with a 40 year old Pioneer and some 50 year old speakers, and a hank of zip cord! YIPEEE! I think everyone understands that - everyone recognizes that. But that's just not a fun hobby for many people. The car buff with tons of disposable money just isn't that that satisfied by pounding the dents out of a 1980 pinto and spray painting it.

Fully agree, Mark. If I had anything over 10 million in assets, my system would have all the voodoo stuff as well. Why not? Even if I couldn't hear it my audiophile guests might, and that's just part of being rich...being able to spoil your friends!

I am talking about those of us (and I've been guilty) who are in debt, barely making ends meet and stuff away a few dollars here and a few dollars there to get that MC transformer that is going to make life beautiful again. Know what I mean?

Audiophilia is not a passion but a mania to many of us and rational thinking is saved for just how far to lie to the IRS about the value of the old Pioneer receiver and Yamaha speakers you donated to the church choir room so you could hear the awful playback even better.

Dave

And yet I have the strange feeling that I would gain far less joy from this hobby if money truely were no object. It is not the sums spent in $ terms that counts for me - it is the endless (unpaid) hours fussing over the system and making minute tweeks the effect of which no-one but me hears.

I may have spent less $ directly on my system than some of my friends - but if we add in all that labour - well - its probably a really scarey number - even at minimum wage.....this is really my wife's problem with the whole thing. I could have been doing something much more useful !!

Sometimes, just ocasionally, I make a change she understands and then appreciates in application. I made one recently to my TT (I'll explain it in another thread sometime - although it won't really be of interest to anyone who has not owned a passive linear tracking arm). Suffice to say for now- it made a huge difference.

[Coytee]

Does nobody here simply turn on their system and listen to the music? []

I've got a "wire" question... as disclaimer, I'm more of a "I don't see how it can make a HUGE difference but it might make a subtle difference in sound at which I'd have to wonder, is it worth paying some of the huge asking prices for a subtle difference?" (for me that answer is no)

BUT...

For those who are of the "I like to fine tune my system by changing wire" persuasion....

If you have your main hardware (TT/Cd player, preamp, power amp, speakers)

Which change will (I chose that word intentionally) give the MOST change and the MOST BANG FOR THE BUCK with a swapout/upgrade?

Is the most bang for the buck first putting a fancy power cord on your items?

Is the first area to focus on the interconnects, followed by the power cord?

Maybe the speaker wire should be the first thing, then power cord, then IC??

Will all those changes give equal change to your system? Surely ONE of those can give a demonstrably larger impact than another on a repeated basis? Much like going from Heresy's to Klipschorns...will always give you a significant and undenable change in your sound, as contrasted with the difference between LaScala & KHorn being not quite as dramatic as Heresy's.

In other words, when someone is buying a stereo system from scratch, I always tell them choose your speakers FIRST and then figure out what you need to drive them. Since changing out the speaker is the single largest factor on what you hear, it should in my opinion, be the first choice you make.

Likewise... I would want to think that these changes (power cord, IC's, speaker wire) should also have some form of heirchy as to which one can alter the sound the most and which one is the most subtle, relative to the others?

Or, are all of them considered equal in impact to the system sound? If this is the case, then I'd draw the analogy that they are like different brands of a $2,500 cd player.... they are essentially the same relative to each other but there might be some faint nuances in the sound that each one imparts. Some might hear that difference and others might not or might not care. (is this line of logic reasonable?)

So, with the wire changes, are all the catagories the same or is one more impactful?

I'm curious if the 'wire guys' (said with respect, I'm not trying to belittle anyone) can come to grips with which is the FIRST one you should look at and which one would make normal sense to be in second place...then third? Surely there is some consensus among fans of wire tuning as to which one is always the first one to tackle?

??

[Hifi jim]

I'm curious if the 'wire guys' (said with respect, I'm not trying to belittle anyone) can come to grips with which is the FIRST one you should look at and which one would make normal sense to be in second place...then third?  Surely there is some consensus among fans of wire tuning as to which one is always the first one to tackle?

That is an excellent question Coytee. It has been my experience that speaker cables will have the largest impact, followed by ICs between the preamp and amp, then ICs between the source and preamp, then digital ICs, and lastly power cords... which should be changed on digital sources first, or at least that is what I've experienced. I'd be interested to hear others opinions.

[Macho Nacho]

I prefer to fine tune myself, while I listen to music.

[JBryan]

Excellent time to bring this up Coytee. I've been thinking that though there are folks in this discussion that absolutely refute any claim other than the "wire-is-wire" mantra, there seems to be quite a few that allow that cables may sound different but they are not prepared to accept that those differences are of any value (certainly not on a cost basis) or in some cases, even audible. Max mentioned that while he doesn't take measurements, he has had to adjust the rest of his system to accommodate a new cable or IC. My experience is quite similar in that I've changed most of my cabling 3 or 4 times over the years and an IC here and there often enough. Though its not considered acceptable in many audio circles, I have used cables (mainly IC's) to eq components- roughly, silver for the higher frequencies and copper for the bottom end. Over time, I was able to get a feel for the basic sound of my system and if a new component sounded a bit shrill, I would use copper IC's and if a bit boomy, silver. This was only a temporary adjustment and it would help me determine if and how well the component would match up with the rest of the system. The difference was never a slap in the face and often barely noticeable but over time, when I'd put on a familiar album, I'd discern whether the component was improving the basic sound are not and if I was able to pinpoint an area that was effecting the overall sound (such as boomy or shrill), I would change the IC and see if that helped. In the end, most components that required an IC to sound their best would be moved out as I considered that as filtering and discounted the component's ability to fit in with the rest of the system.

The most noticeable difference I heard from cables was when I inserted a reel-to-reel deck. When I first had it, I placed it about 5' from the preamp and had to dash over to the local electronics store to get some run-of-the-mill IC's that would reach. The deck worked out well and sounded pretty good but the sound was a bit lush compared to the other sources. I ordered a pr of IC's from a fella named Grover and when I exchanged them with the ROTM IC's, the lushness was gone and the R2R sounded more refined and detailed.

Getting back to Max's observation, on the occasions that I change out a component or an IC between the preamp, crossover or amps, I run a sound check using a few tracks off of test CDs and a mike located at the listening position and graph the results. Though I rarely have to make any adjustments with a new component, I inevitably have to make slight adjustments to the crossover when I change IC's or speaker cable. Noting no other changes in the system or room, I think this may qualify as a back-end approach to suggest that different cables do alter the signal - at least in regard to frequency levels and damping factor.

[Fastlayne]

I have no opinion on expensive cables but do live a Zen lifestyle and found this exchange explains why my post count is down. ;-)

I do have an opinion about cables, but I still understand your statement. The vitriol is out of place here.

The best two channel system I have ever heard was at the home of the Zen master. A few years ago I emailed a cable company for suggestions of speaker cables to go with my new Maggies. The owner of the company replied expressing his surprise there was another Magnepan owner in the region and invited me to come to his house to listen to his system. Luckily, I was able to visit him a short time later. Stepping down into the listening room, it became obvious this was not your average room. In fact, it was also a recording studio. The effect of the acoustic treatment on the walls and the double thick padded carpet was apparent immediately. Since I had read about his speaker setup recommendations, the single chair, sitting low to the ground, facing the two panel speakers was somewhat familiar. That is about the only thing I could call familiar. You'd think I'd recognize the speakers at least, since we had the same ones. His speakers may have been the MG3.6R at some point, but the only similarity, other than the general overall size and shape, were the ribbon tweeters. The panels were mounted in an exotic wood frame that added stiffness and a solid foundation. The panels themselves had been completely rewired. Not just the connecting wires, the entire mylar panels had the new wire glued to them for both the bass and midrange sections. He had made custom crossovers and mounted them in clear Lucite boxes sitting behind the speakers. Connected to the crossovers were mono tube amps with Wavestream prominently visible and V8 was a fitting title from the appearance. At the back of the room was his incredible turntable mounted on a thick, granite platform, a top loading digital transport that looked like it landed there under it's own power, and Jeff Rowland preamp with the DC power supply. The turntable looked similar to this:

The sound? I already said it was the best system I have heard, but that doesn't mean a lot if you don't know what I have heard for a comparison. I could say it is the best you have heard, but that might come across as pretentious even if it is true (and it proabably is). All I can add is it left me with a new awareness of what is possible for musical reproduction. As I was leaving, he handed me two pairs of his cables as a gift. It was enough of a gift just to be able to hear his HiFi system and I would have been glad to pay for the cables...although afterward I realized what he had given me and would have had to ask for something further down the line or just a single run if I had to pay. Wow, wouldn't that have been awkward.[]

So do I even think his system would have sounded just as good with zipcord in place of his cables? No, I don't think it and I certainly wouldn't say so if I did. Here is a gentleman who has dedicated himself to music and sound in all the aspects from recording to playback. He is obviously generous and unassuming. He meticulously set up the system with no stone left unturned. Should I ask for proof his cables made a difference? Talk about the height of arrogance...that would be right up there. The proof of the pudding is in the tasting and I had just enjoyed an ample portion. It was delicious!

I think we need to remember when other forum members are sharing their experiences in audio, it's akin to opening their listening rooms to us. We should try to be gracious guests.