Since when is $250k a year, middle class?

[Hifi jim]

Without getting political here, lets please keep this about economics and avoid another thread lock. But I'm wondering what you all think a surgeon making $260k a year is: middle class as his wife is quoted, or at the very least upper middle class, if not wealthy? I'm referring to a Wall Street Journal article about a surgeon living in Tennessee who owns two homes, land, donates $1,300 a month to his church, and poor him... drives a 10 year old Infiniti. Now I'm sure they don't view themselves as someone making $60k a year does, but I hardly think they are middle class. I live in one of the most costly areas in the US unfortunately, second only to San Franciscos suburbs. An entry level home here on the bad side of town is $350k with property taxes of about $7k+. We have the highest electric rates in the country, some of the highest car insurance and the sales tax is 8.625%. I make far less than $250k a year, and still consider myself middle class. My father, recently retired from the same job I have (a union electrician) was the sole bread winner and raised three kids in what is now becoming an upper middle class neighborhood. Most of his neighbors don't make anywhere near $250k. So my question is, what in the world are these people thinking about? The interviewee, the reporter and the paper are all nuts in my opinion. $260k a year in Tennessee... I'll take it. From my middles class seat, that looks rich. http://finance.yahoo.com/retirement/article/106934/Wealth-Less-Effect-Earning-Well-Feeling-Otherwise;_ylt=Ag2joj6ZhKCrHFAtAz9vhq0azJV4

[J.4knee]

I agree with WSJ. $250K/year for a family is not as much as you may think. IMO it is definitely middle class, perhaps upper end, but middle class none the less. To me that is not being rich by any stretch. To me being rich means you are wealthy enough to discount the notion of a personal financial budget at all. Granted at that salary your budget would offer more disposable income options than someone making $60K/Yr for a family. But you'd still have obligation to meet and account for. But still why be concerned with what anyone makes besides yourself?

[Hifi jim]

I'm not concerned with what anybody makes. I just find it incredible to think that a family income of $260k a year in Tennessee is middle class. They own two homes, land and give their church $1,300 a month. If that's middle class, then I must be dirt poor.

[jamesV]

If that's middle class, then I must be dirt poor.

I have to agree with you on this on Jim. That is crazy to think that 260k is middle class and if it is and YOU are dirt poor I hate to see what I am considered by those standards.

I guess it all depends on where you come from.

James

[Tom Adams]

At the risk of being blunt.....

Who gives a crap??

More importantly....why do YOU give a crap? You say you're not concerned about who makes what, but then level some criticism about what they own and try and draw some relationship to you. WHY DO YOU CARE??????

That's part of the problem in this country - people spending waaaaay too much time being concerned about who makes what. Or worse yet - being concerned about what other people do PERIOD! Seriously - please explain how one's life is affected by what ANYBODY else earns?? There is no impact other than the self-imposed needless worry/concern.

To me it's real simple - I do the job I'm paid to do and do it the best I can. That's all I have to be concerned with. If I believe I'm worth more and can't get it where I'm working, then America affords to me the opportunity to exercise my freedom by firing the boss and going some where else. I have never concerned myself with what others I work with (my peers) make, but boy-oh-boy do I know those that do. As for my opinion of them I'll not go there. Regardless, I could give a flying flip if my income or your income or anyone else's income makes them poor, middle class, wealthy, filthy rich, whatever. I'd much rather be concerned about being labelled friendly / unfriendly, honest / dishonest, good / bad, etc. Seems to me that's more important and it never has anything to do with money.

Sheesh.....it must be so nice to have one's life in such perfect order that the only thing one has to be concerned about is other people.

Tom

[Hifi jim]

Tom, at the risk of being blunt: you obviously know little of that articles implications and even less about me. This is not about who makes what, of that I could care less. This is about how those who earn $250k claiming they are just getting by, and whining about a possible 3% increase to their income tax. Hearing a wife of a surgeon call herself middle class is just maddening because they're obviously oblivious to the fact that they are in fact on financially solid ground, unlike so many middle class Americans.

Sheesh.....it must be so nice to have one's life in such perfect order that the only thing one has to be concerned about is other people.

Isn't that what your post was about? An attack on me and my thoughts and views. You did not respond to the topic at hand, but rather placed yourself on higher moral ground and chastised me for raising a point that you missed. A contradiction to say the least.

[BuyOtherSoundEquipment]

I also agree with you, Jim.

I'm obviously no expert, but you often see people who make above 100K stretching themselves very thin, and then proclaiming that they "are just getting by." I'll bet that any of the people in the article could dig their way out of their percieved financial hole by doing a little economizing and re-looking at things with some old-fashioned common sense. My favorite little excerpt:

"Her family of five would like more room than they have in their
2,500-square-foot home, yet they can't afford anything larger."

Awww... how sad.

This reminds me of a story about the young daughter of a wealthy bank president... The teacher in her third grade class gave them an assignment to write a story about someone who was poor.

The little girl got to work right away, and finished early. She gave her essay to the teacher, who read it to the class. It began:

"Once upon a time there was a very poor man, who lived with his very poor wife. His butler was very poor, and his gardener was very poor, and his chef was very poor. Even his nanny was very poor!"

[Olorin]

$250k a year is definitely into the skinny part of the desirable side of the bell curve, but it's still solidly middle class.

[Islander]

Many people aspire to a lifestyle where they can afford everything they see on TV. Unfortunately, that likely costs around $500k a year, so they go into debt trying to achieve it and then find that they can't make ends meet. Sometimes, you just have to say, "This is what I can afford and it makes me happy. Good enough!"

A survey was done a few years ago, asking people of various income levels if they felt rich. It wasn't until they hit the $5 million a year level that people considered themselves to be "rich". People only making $2-4 million a year considered themselves to be "well off".

[Hifi jim]

Many people aspire to a lifestyle where they can afford everything they see on TV.  Unfortunately, that likely costs around $500k a year, so they go into debt trying to achieve it and then find that they can't make ends meet.  Sometimes, you just have to say, "This is what I can afford and it makes me happy.  Good enough!"

A survey was done a few years ago, asking people of various income levels if they felt rich.  It wasn't until they hit the $5 million a year level that people considered themselves to be "rich".  People only making $2-4 million a year considered themselves to be "well off".

Excellent point Islander. It's this perception that scares me and makes me think it's a big reason we're in the financial debacle we're in.

[Tom Adams]

I read the article and do understand the supposed "implications". I guess you're now a mind-reader???

To me it's pretty clear that this is nothing more than a vieled attempt at criticising someone for being in a certain income bracket. It's just another wealth envy commentary just as yours are.

Like has been pointed out, whether you chose to believe it or not, $250K is NOW the NEW middle class - which is now considered to be from around $60 to $300K. Yes - that's a pretty broad range. But as wealth has increased in this country, so has the range we label as middle class. And as has also been pointed out there's lower middle class and upper middle class. Listen, it is not unusual for a 2 income family to make $250K nowadays. I know several. And their level of spending, percentage-wise, is about the same as me. Do they have a bigger/nicer house? Yup - but they have a bigger mortgage too. That's their choice and a choice that that builder that derives HIS income off of is glad they made. And that same spending choice/decision is what puts money into the pockets of other's who derive their income off of those choices.

So there mister smarty pants - I responded to the topic. Ya happy?? So how about responding to my question? What does any of this matter to you?

As for your attempt to portray yourself as superior in intellect with that "but rather placed yourself on higher moral ground and chastised me for raising a point that you missed. A contradiction to say the least." comment. Nice try. Weak - but nice try.

Do you not have anything to do there at work that you're supposed to be getting paid to do other than posting on the Klipsch forum using company resources (my assumption of course)??

Tom

[colterphoto1]

ok, then I'm definitely a pauper...[]

[Joe Shmoe]

Pfft... if that's middle class im in poverty! []

Reminds of something I once heard, I believe it was in church? "What you earn is not what defines who you are" Yes it is tough in this world to live by that, and believe it, but it is true.

[peshewah]

Hell, I'm laid-off. What class am I in?

[stan krajewski]

At the risk of being blunt.....

Who gives a crap??

More importantly....why do YOU give a crap? You say you're not concerned about who makes what, but then level some criticism about what they own and try and draw some relationship to you. WHY DO YOU CARE??????

That's part of the problem in this country - people spending waaaaay too much time being concerned about who makes what. Or worse yet - being concerned about what other people do PERIOD! Seriously - please explain how one's life is affected by what ANYBODY else earns?? There is no impact other than the self-imposed needless worry/concern.

To me it's real simple - I do the job I'm paid to do and do it the best I can. That's all I have to be concerned with. If I believe I'm worth more and can't get it where I'm working, then America affords to me the opportunity to exercise my freedom by firing the boss and going some where else. I have never concerned myself with what others I work with (my peers) make, but boy-oh-boy do I know those that do. As for my opinion of them I'll not go there. Regardless, I could give a flying flip if my income or your income or anyone else's income makes them poor, middle class, wealthy, filthy rich, whatever. I'd much rather be concerned about being labelled friendly / unfriendly, honest / dishonest, good / bad, etc. Seems to me that's more important and it never has anything to do with money.

Sheesh.....it must be so nice to have one's life in such perfect order that the only thing one has to be concerned about is other people.

Tom

100% in agreement.

At some point these people who make more money than the norm, got up off their asses and went to school or started working as hard as hell to get where they are. At least all the ones that I know.

Worry about your own life and leave everyone else the hell alone!

Grow up.

Get a life.

And every other cliche that applies here.

[J.4knee]

This is about how those who earn $250k claiming they are just getting by, and whining about a possible 3% increase to their income tax. Hearing a wife of a surgeon call herself middle class is just maddening because they're obviously oblivious to the fact that they are in fact on financially solid ground, unlike so many middle class Americans.

I think their "whining" about a potential 3% hike in taxes is a very valid gripe. They earned their money why should they not be entitled to keep it or at least a significant portion of it. When or where is it written that being middle class means you should struggle or how much you should struggle? I just do not see how thinking of himself as being middle class is a maddening thing unless you do have an issue with the dollar amount. You seem to be the one passing judgment on them; you seem to be assessing what their income means to you and artificially declaring whether or not it meets your definition. Someone making $250k may well have extenuating circumstances that dictate they are struggling. Like it or not you are fixating on a number as it related to your worldview and asking us to evaluate your rationale and then you seem to be getting p!ssed when we disagree or ask why you are fixated on this singular irrelevant issue. What you or I or this surgeon make is moot in each others lives other than to generate an unfounded angst at someone whom we feel has more privilege than we think they may be entitled to or because they voice a grievance we do not understand. Did the article indicate what the Church does with the money, maybe it goes to an outreach program, in that instance the guy is a hero because his donation will be more likely to be more directly applied to the cause as apposed to being consumed by comptrollers and other overhead expenditures that decimate charitable donations to mere percentage of their original value.

[Islander]

Can we agree that $250k a year is upper middle income?

I prefer "middle income" to "middle class", since class is truly determined by what you do, not by who you are or what you own.

[Hifi jim]

Do you not have anything to do there at work that you're supposed to be getting paid to do other than posting on the Klipsch forum using company resources (my assumption of course)??

I guess you're the mind reader now Tom. I'm an electrician as stated in my first post, if I were at work there'd be zero time for computer use, let alone computers to do such. I agree that middle class can be a broad range and that was my question, what do others feel $250k a year is? I thought it simple enough. Those who have chimed in agree, some do not. I also think we need to consider ones location when speaking of wages, and again I pointed to my locale and expenses faced by those in my community. It was not as you implied, a criticism of what they own, nor was I drawing any relationship to me. I was showing examples of what cost of living in my neck of the woods is, and what I consider to be middle class. You drew your own incorrect implications and posted without knowledge of the topic at hand.

To me it's pretty clear that this is nothing more than a vieled attempt at criticising someone for being in a certain income bracket.  It's just another wealth envy commentary just as yours are.

I'm pretty sure the The Wall Street Journal is the last place you would read about wealth envy, and I was not making a "wealth envy commentary". Inferring so makes you sound like a rich snob, but I don't want to assume. []

Listen, it is not unusual for a 2 income family to make $250K nowadays.  I know several.

Here, many school teachers and police officers make $140k, so there are many households that have a combined income of $250k. Considering the high cost of living here, those I know in that position still consider themselves upper middle class. My feeling is, that wage in Tennessee is at the very least upper middle class. And as was pointed out by another poster, this family seems to have extended themselves beyond their means and therefore "feel" middle class. Perhaps if they sold their second home, or cut down on church donations they might feel upper class again.

As for your attempt to portray yourself as superior in intellect with that "but rather placed yourself on higher moral ground and chastised me for raising a point that you missed. A contradiction to say the least." comment.  Nice try.  Weak - but nice try.

Hardly a "weak" point, you passed judgement when you could have remained silent if you were living up to the moral code that you described. I'm not sure where I portrayed myself as superior in intellect though.

[Hifi jim]

Can we agree that $250k a year is upper middle income?

Agreed.

[Tom Adams]

This is about how those who earn $250k claiming they are just getting by, and whining about a possible 3% increase to their income tax. Hearing a wife of a surgeon call herself middle class is just maddening because they're obviously oblivious to the fact that they are in fact on financially solid ground, unlike so many middle class Americans.

I think their "whining" about a potential 3% hike in taxes is a very valid gripe. They earned their money why should they not be entitled to keep it or at least a significant portion of it. When or where is it written that being middle class means you should struggle or how much you should struggle? I just do not see how thinking of himself as being middle class is a maddening thing unless you do have an issue with the dollar amount. You seem to be the one passing judgment on them; you seem to be assessing what their income means to you and artificially declaring whether or not it meets your definition. Someone making $250k may well have extenuating circumstances that dictate they are struggling. Like it or not you are fixating on a number as it related to your worldview and asking us to evaluate your rationale and then you seem to be getting p!ssed when we disagree or ask why you are fixated on this singular irrelevant issue. What you or I or this surgeon make is moot in each others lives other than to generate an unfounded angst at someone whom we feel has more privilege than we think they may be entitled to or because they voice a grievance we do not understand. Did the article indicate what the Church does with the money, maybe it goes to an outreach program, in that instance the guy is a hero because his donation will be more likely to be more directly applied to the cause as apposed to being consumed by comptrollers and other overhead expenditures that decimate charitable donations to mere percentage of their original value.

+1

FWIW - I personally know 2 guys who were riding the housing build boom for 8 to 10 years. These guys made $250k to $300K a year, possibly more. They employed several folks and supported many sub-contrators. Both were very generous to their church and they did ALOT for the community. They're the type of folks that love sitting around the fire pit drinking beer just as much as dining out at a fancy restaurant. Both of these guys and their families live in houses they rent now. Gone are the boats, the big homes, the big trucks, the employees, the 4-wheelers and all the other trappings of their "wealth". Neither of these guys whine - probably due to their strong faith.

The point here is that just because you make $250K or $300K or $500K, you are not recession proof.

Tom