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Since when is $250k a year, middle class?


Hifi jim

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Fish, I think this line can show how dated a song can be in just 20-some years.

I want a pool to swim in
Fancy suits to dress in
Some stock in GM and GE


I hope Rock'n Robert sold his GM stock after he cashed in (some say sold out) with his "like a rock" Chevy ads.

You know,I thought the same thing as I was typing.My how things have changed.GE has been run into the ground by the kooks at the helm,not even held responsible.

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The middle class is supposed to be HUGE and the lower class very small and the upper class very small.


Saying that the middle class is supposed to be huge is like saying that the weather is supposed to be nice. Class distribution at any given time is what it is. I"ve never seen any sort of "mission statement" describing an ideal distribution of wealth, other than maybe in the Communist Manifesto, which made a lot more sense in theory than it ever did in practice. Governments don't dictate how many of the people fall into one income group or another; skill, effort, talent, upbringing and luck count for most of it, with some slight influence from the government in the form of certain taxes.

As for any democratic government "steering" the economy or its people's social trends, a good analogy would be a rider trying to steer a horse using bungee cords for reins. He has some influence, but can't be said to have direct control.
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The middle class is supposed to be HUGE and the lower class very small and the upper class very small.


Saying that the middle class is supposed to be huge is like saying that the weather is supposed to be nice. Class distribution at any given time is what it is. I"ve never seen any sort of "mission statement" describing an ideal distribution of wealth, other than maybe in the Communist Manifesto, which made a lot more sense in theory than it ever did in practice. Governments don't dictate how many of the people fall into one income group or another; skill, effort, talent, upbringing and luck count for most of it, with some slight influence from the government in the form of certain taxes.

As for any democratic government "steering" the economy or its people's social trends, a good analogy would be a rider trying to steer a horse using bungee cords for reins. He has some influence, but can't be said to have direct control.

The principals our country are founded on the statement I made before. True, the government doesn't dictate how it is, it just is. The truth is our middle class is shrinking, but the majority still fall within it with few exceptions. If you read my post a bit more closely you will realize we essentially share the same view.

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What difference does it make what label is given to an income of $250K?

What difference does it make? It was the only question asked.

Todd,

Yes. You are correct it was the only question.

Being the only question doesn't make it relevant.

Just MHO.

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Todd,

Yes. You are correct it was the only question.

Being the only question doesn't make it relevant.

Just MHO.

What was the relevance of the original link then? Or the link Tom provided? Both of those were newsworthy stories from respected sources. Depends on your interest I guess. Some consider Jessica Simpson looking plump in jeans newsworthy, other do not.
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Todd,

Yes. You are correct it was the only question.

Being the only question doesn't make it relevant.

Just MHO.

What was the relevance of the original link then? Or the link Tom provided? Both of those were newsworthy stories from respected sources. Depends on your interest I guess. Some consider Jessica Simpson looking plump in jeans newsworthy, other do not.

I don't think Jessica Simpson is relevant either. The discussion about the definition of middle class is grinding a political ax on one side or the other.

political discussions don't usually last long on the forum.

grind away. I don't wish to silence anyone. Like every one else just sharing my opinion.

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Well, these are factual distributions. So, if there is going to be a "middle" it has to appear somewhere in the middle of the distribution! The whole 5 quintiles can't be "middle." It is usually assumed that Quintiles 2, 3 and 4 are the middle class with quintile 1 falling below it, and quintile 5 being above middle class. That makes for a very broad middle that can account for lower middle class on up to upper middle class. So, $250K/yr in the USA is totally beyond the middle income class distribution. It is in the 5th quintile. Furthermore, it's actually about the top 3% of all incomes! So look, you can't claim the top 3% is in the middle of anything statistically. You can make a political or moral argument for it, but the numbers are the numbers.


Mark, thanks for bringing logic instead of labels to this discussion, along with some other posters. What may be happening is that people in any income group tend to associate with others of like income, so millionaires think everyone who doesn't live on the street probably has some servants. To them, all the "relevant" people drive new luxury cars and grumble about the cost of Ivy League university tuition, but it's an annoyance, not a reason to send your kids to a "lesser" institution.

In the same way, those earning $60,000 a year, for example, may think that they constitute the majority of taxpayers, who feel they're being taken advantage of by the small group of really rich who control government policy.
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Its pretty easy to tell what econmic class you're in. If you drink wine, your upper middle class, if you drink beer out of a bottle, your middle class, if you drink beer out of a can, your lower middle class, if you can't afford beer, you are poor. If you own a winery, well your rich.

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For example, in the USA just divide the 113 million houselholds into 5 equal quintiles based on income from low to high. Putting 22M households in each quintile you get this distribution as of 2004. 

Quintile 1: $0 to $18k

Quintile 2: $18K to $34K

Quintile 3: $34K to $55K

Quintile 4: $55K to $88K

Quintile 5: Over $88k

Well, these are factual distributions. So, if there is going to be a "middle" it has to appear somewhere in the middle of the distribution! The whole 5 quintiles can't be "middle." It is usually assumed that Quintiles 2, 3 and 4 are the middle class with quintile 1 falling below it, and quintile 5 being above middle class. That makes for a very broad middle that can account for lower middle class on up to upper middle class. So, $250K/yr in the USA is totally beyond the middle income class distribution. It is in the 5th quintile. Furthermore, it's actually about the top 3% of all incomes! So look, you can't claim the top 3% is in the middle of anything statistically. You can make a political or moral argument for it, but the numbers are the numbers.

A very scientific and logical approach to my question Mark. Thanks.
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Its pretty easy to tell what econmic class you're in. If you drink wine, your upper middle class, if you drink beer out of a bottle, your middle class, if you drink beer out of a can, your lower middle class, if you can't afford beer, you are poor. If you own a winery, well your rich.


I remember reading long ago that you can gauge class by how two couples sit in a car: lower class, both men in the front, both women in the back. Middle class: one couple in the front, one couple in the back. Upper class: one of each couple in the front and the same in the back, to have a better visit.
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I don't think Jessica Simpson is relevant either. The discussion about the definition of middle class is grinding a political ax on one side or the other.

I meant no offense Daddy Dee, nor did I mean to imply that you care about Jessica's booty... well maybe I do a little [:$]. I was simply trying to explain that I felt this an interesting topic for discussion. As far as political axe grinding, I had no intention other than to look at this as an economic issue purely by numbers.
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I don't think Jessica Simpson is relevant either. The discussion about the definition of middle class is grinding a political ax on one side or the other.

I meant no offense Daddy Dee, nor did I mean to imply that you care about Jessica's booty... well maybe I do a little Embarrassed. I was simply trying to explain that I felt this an interesting topic for discussion. As far as political axe grinding, I had no intention other than to look at this as an economic issue purely by numbers.

It's hard for people to seperate economics from emotion. I never saw this as anything other than an economic discussion. It has been interesting to see what others read into it.

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It's hard for people to seperate economics from emotion. I never saw this as anything other than an economic discussion. It has been interesting to see what others read into it.

Well....I think md explained pretty clear,the economy is politics and visaversa.I cannnot imagine discussing one without the other in the context of the OP.Although my discussing either has never changed this country or the economy one itty bitty bit(but it's still fun,for a shortwhile).

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I think of rich, or upper class, as being able to not have to really worry too much about money. Could stop working, sit back, trust funds send you the dollars each month.

As a doctor married to a lawyer, we do OK. Personally think of myself as upper middle probably. To me, rich is like I said above. I quit working. Big problems, no cash coming in just because I happen to have a pulse. I am able to afford nice things, but not unreasonable. I have 4 boys in private schools. We have/had $250,000 in student loans. My med school, residency, Wife's college, law school, graduate law degree.... Pay about 4-5k per month on those. Taxes, about to do nothing but go up.

So, I certainly cannot complain. I get to live in a nice house. Take some nice trips occassionally. Have nice Audio gear, most of it bought used...

But, I drive a Ford truck, nothing fancy. Could not go out and buy Palladiums right this minute. Would be nice I admit.... At the end of some months, we squeek by.

And honestly, money does NOT buy happiness. I have more stress, more worry, more fret in my life now than I ever had. When I was a med student, newly married, not making a dime, paying to go to med school, broke as all get out... Life was much much simpler. And truthfully, much happier. Had a 400 square foot apartment, thought we were royalty. Now, most days are really quite tough. Doesn't make sense sometimes. Quite depressing a lot of the times. Messed up, huh?

And, I find myself envious of people who are just weathly by birth or luck. I have to work my tail off for what I get. No handouts. One thing go wrong, whole thing comes crashing down. One baby with low Apgars, doesn't get into Harvard or pitch for the Yankees, all my hard work can be gone just like that. Very vulnerable situation when I think about it. But, what in life is not.

I certainly have more than enough to be thankfull for. But, I think everyone probably thinks that the next guy over is the 'rich' one. Trump, movie starts, et. al. probably realize how wealthy they are, but that is a different level all together. And then, how many of those people are 'truly' happy? Not as many as you would probably think.

Paul

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I don't think Jessica Simpson is relevant either. The discussion about the definition of middle class is grinding a political ax on one side or the other.

I meant no offense Daddy Dee, nor did I mean to imply that you care about Jessica's booty... well maybe I do a little Embarrassed. I was simply trying to explain that I felt this an interesting topic for discussion. As far as political axe grinding, I had no intention other than to look at this as an economic issue purely by numbers.

It's hard for people to seperate economics from emotion. I never saw this as anything other than an economic discussion. It has been interesting to see what others read into it.

Todd,

No offense taken. It is indeed interesting.

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Well....I think md explained pretty clear,the economy is politics and visaversa.I cannnot imagine discussing one without the other in the context of the OP.

While I agree Fish that two can be linked, they are not necessarily interchangeable and can be discussed individually. Take illegal immigration as an example: political topic, yes. But one could also study the economics of defending our borders vs. the economics of an open door policy. Politicians are forced to be economists, while not all economists are necessarily political.
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