Khorn replacement woofer that goes up to 800Hz with similar sensitivity?

[capo72]

Seti:

I am about to take delivery on a pair on Jub clones. Pretty much in the same place as expressed by "Ki" - being that I have not 100% committed to the mid/top section. What did you end up doing in yours? Can you post some pictures? I am trying to see what others have done. WAF is a big big factor here if I am ever going to get these into my house.

Kwing

Lately i've been fascinated with the idea of building some DIY Jub bass bins and using this up top:

http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html

I really like the thought of those oris horns sitting atop Jub bass bins with the BMS 4592ND driver. Pretty pricey, but if I were to purchase them I would not need alot of this other stuff I have laying around here. Those Oris horns have much better WAF, at my house, than anything else I have seen sitting on a Jub bass bin thus far. Good luck with your new venture.

Jeremy

[seti]

Seti:

I am about to take delivery on a pair on Jub clones. Pretty much in the same place as expressed by "Ki" - being that I have not 100% committed to the mid/top section. What did you end up doing in yours? Can you post some pictures? I am trying to see what others have done. WAF is a big big factor here if I am ever going to get these into my house.

Kwing

Lately i've been fascinated with the idea of building some DIY Jub bass bins and using this up top:

http://www.bd-design.nl/index1.html

I really like the thought of those oris horns sitting atop Jub bass bins with the BMS 4592ND driver. Pretty pricey, but if I were to purchase them I would not need alot of this other stuff I have laying around here. Those Oris horns have much better WAF, at my house, than anything else I have seen sitting on a Jub bass bin thus far. Good luck with your new venture.

Jeremy

The bd-design horns are interesting. There have been similar horns on ebay but the quality is subpar or at least that is what I have read. A circular tractrix that crosses around 500hz-600hz would be interesting.

[capo72]

A circular tractrix that crosses around 500hz-600hz would be interesting.

It would be interesting and it would be small in scale compared to the bass bin. The Oris 250 I've shown is about 22" diameter which would barely be as wide as the front panel. I'm afraid it would even look small. I guess visual proportion is important to me for some reason. the Oris 200 and 150 are bigger but their lower fc would be unnecessary with the Jub bin. I think the Orphean MKII system shown on the BD website would be a killer idea on a K-horn bass bin. That would probably be a cheaper option for me also because SWMBO just gave me some corners. But after all I read about how much cleaner the Jub bins are than the k-horns I can't help but lean toward the Jub idea. Oh well..............it's all just dreaming at this point anyway. Thanx for listening.

Jeremy

[seti]

A circular tractrix that crosses around 500hz-600hz would be interesting.

It would be interesting and it would be small in scale compared to the bass bin. The Oris 250 I've shown is about 22" diameter which would barely be as wide as the front panel. I'm afraid it would even look small. I guess visual proportion is important to me for some reason. the Oris 200 and 150 are bigger but their lower fc would be unnecessary with the Jub bin. I think the Orphean MKII system shown on the BD website would be a killer idea on a K-horn bass bin. That would probably be a cheaper option for me also because SWMBO just gave me some corners. But after all I read about how much cleaner the Jub bins are than the k-horns I can't help but lean toward the Jub idea. Oh well..............it's all just dreaming at this point anyway. Thanx for listening.

Jeremy

There are a couple guys with BD horns on their Klipschorn LFs. I thought they looked cool.

[capo72]

There are a couple guys with BD horns on their Klipschorn LFs. I thought they looked cool.

I've always loved the set up in JBryan's avatar. Looks like he has a full range driver instead of a compression driver on his Oris horns.

[Islander]

It would be interesting and it would be small in scale compared to the bass bin. The Oris 250 I've shown is about 22" diameter which would barely be as wide as the front panel. I'm afraid it would even look small. I guess visual proportion is important to me for some reason. the Oris 200 and 150 are bigger but their lower fc would be unnecessary with the Jub bin.

The K510 and K402 horns have similar specs, but the bigger 402 does a better job, by all accounts. Bigger horns control the air in the room more easily and are usually the better way to go, if they're practical in your situation.

[mikebse2a3]

I really like the thought of those oris horns sitting atop Jub bass bins with the BMS 4592ND driver. Pretty pricey, but if I were to purchase them I would not need alot of this other stuff I have laying around here. Those Oris horns have much better WAF, at my house, than anything else I have seen sitting on a Jub bass bin thus far.

K402 work in progress! I believe this is going to look pretty good on my Zebrawood Jubs when done.

mike tn[]

[ZAKO]

Putting lipstick on a WartHog is still a WartHog.

[ClaudeJ1]

Just as important as the bandwidth improvement of the Jubilee LF Horn is the even lower distortion of the Jubilee LF Horn design versus the KHorn LF design.

mike tn

It only matters if you use the bass horn beyond 200 Hz., which I don't. Straith axis horns rule and you want them as low as possible.

[kwingylee]

Mike:

The K402 dressed up looks good!!

What is the current crossover frequency between the bass bottom and the top horn? What is the upper cutoff of the K402/K69 combo?

[mikebse2a3]

Thanks! Kwing Y Lee

The Jub/K402 active and passive crossovers as designed by Roy Delgado acheive an acoustical crossover of approximately 500Hz.

I believe the upper cutoff of the K402/K69A is around 18kHz.

The K402/K69-A IMO is impressive in many ways and is a good cost/performance option.

I presently use the K402/TAD4002 which for many more $$$$ IMHO is an exceptional combination for it's dynamics, clarity and detail preservation.

mike tn

[rigma]

Wow Mike, it looks great regardless of what Moron thinks!

rigma

[mikebse2a3]

Just as important as the bandwidth improvement of the Jubilee LF Horn is the even lower distortion of the Jubilee LF Horn design versus the KHorn LF design.

mike tn

It only matters if you use the bass horn beyond 200 Hz., which I don't. Straith axis horns rule and you want them as low as possible.

You are absolutely wrong Claude. Look again at the AES paper comparing the Jubilee with the Khorn for second and third harmonic distortion. The Jub exhibits as much as 5 to 12db less distortion over most of the 20hz to 200hz frequency range.

mike tn

[ClaudeJ1]

Just as important as the bandwidth improvement of the Jubilee LF Horn is the even lower distortion of the Jubilee LF Horn design versus the KHorn LF design.

mike tn

It only matters if you use the bass horn beyond 200 Hz., which I don't. Straith axis horns rule and you want them as low as possible.

You are absolutely wrong Claude. Look again at the AES paper comparing the Jubilee with the Khorn for second and third harmonic distortion. The Jub exhibits as much as 5 to 12db less distortion over most of the 20hz to 200hz frequency range.

mike tn

I was thinking more on the order of Intermodulation Distortion, not harmonic, but thanks for pointing out that specific, and I should have been more precise as well.

[ClaudeJ1]

According to Bill Fitzmaurice, a well respected (horn subwoofers mostly) designer, he doesn't believe in horns being folded above 250 Hz.

Yes, they measure just fine, but they don't sound as good as a staight axis horn above that range. This is why I have a Peavey MB-1 going from 180-1,000 Hz.

It's also probably the reason why Roy crosses the 402/K69 at 500 Hz. with PEQ, rather than higher up the scale. He has said before the the compression driver at the bottom end of the mid wins over the top end of the bass horn in performance.

There's no question that the Jubilee is a superor bass horn design in every way and represents an incremental improvement over the original Khorn bass bin.

The net result is that the Xover point has only moved up by 100 Hz. to 500 vs. the 400 Hz. Xover point in the stock Khorn. The "super Khorn" by you know who was crossed to an Altec 311 horn with 290 driver at 300 Hz. with a JBL baby cheek tweeter. There's a reason why a lower midrange Xover is better for clarity on piano, voices, etc.

The improve high frequency response of the Jub bin allows for 500-600 Hz. to be more tolerable, but I would still cross it as low as possible to a good straght axis horn if I were to get those in the future. Without PEQ in the Xover (passive or active), it would be impossive to do Constant Directivity mid-tweeters in a 2-way or to make the Palladium work. It's all about a "systems" approach, which should include at least 80% attention paid to the listening room instead of just the transducers.

[Don Richard]

Yes, they measure just fine, but they don't sound as good as a staight axis horn above that range. This is why I have a Peavey MB-1 going from 180-1,000 Hz.

It's also probably the reason why Roy crosses the 402/K69 at 500 Hz. with PEQ, rather than higher up the scale.

An important part of crossover design is the matching of polar response between the LF and HF horns. Probably the reason that 500 Hz was chosen for the Jubilee?

[mikebse2a3]

Don is correct in that the polars is an area that Roy is definitly giving weight to when he looks at the blending of the system. Roy has stated in he past that he looks at all aspects(ie: amplitude, phase, polars, distortion,...etc...) and lets the Horns/Drivers tell him where they need to cross at.

mike tn

[Coytee]

Roy has stated in he past that he looks at all aspects(ie: amplitude, phase, polars, distortion,...etc...) and lets the Horns/Drivers tell him where they need to cross at

Some people are in the loony bin for having voices talk to them and Roy is out on his own when he admits that horns and drivers talk to him?

[8-)]

[ClaudeJ1]

Don is correct in that the polars is an area that Roy is definitly giving weight to when he looks at the blending of the system. Roy has stated in he past that he looks at all aspects(ie: amplitude, phase, polars, distortion,...etc...) and lets the Horns/Drivers tell him where they need to cross at.

mike tn

Yes, this is a good reminder of Roy's philosophy, and perhaps several reasons to choose 4th order slopes in a passive or active Xover, however more expensive and complex it might be.

For as good as horns are vs. direct radiators in terms of pattern control, they still change with frequency to various degrees. The K0402 appears to be a conical/tractrix combination which give the smoothest response along with all the benefits of Constant Directivity in one package. Couple that with his phase plug design and you can hear the results of his horn-driver-phase plug-Xover "systems" approach in 2, 3, 4, and 5-way systems he has designed for over 23 years. Roy definitely strikes me as the "adopted son" of PWK in terms of his prolific output in speaker design.

Aside from this, everything in engineering is still a compromise, and this includes $$$$ spent for given level of sound and personal taste in one's space.