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Weird damage to RC-64


bonedoctor

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We test our speakers for ASTM drop standards, unfortunately UPS expects goods to pass a 4 FOOT drop test. Which is rediculous. The shippers are also good at denying claims for shipping damage. Pallet shipping to dealers is definately safer.

I don't find fault in Klipsch for making them with plastic baskets. To me, the blame is on the shipping company. If I drop something in the store and it breaks, I can't go to the clerk and say you should have made a better product. I'm responsible. If I test drive a car and back into a pole, again, that's my problem, not the manufacturer of the car. Klipsch makes speakers that are capable of cranking at high volumes and as long as they can do that well and accurately, I'll put my blame on the shipping company.

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Klipsch should issue a statement that buying these and shipping them rather than buying at local dealer will be "at your own risk"

I would have to disagree.

As long as Klipsch has online approved dealer they should be the one providing a better packing knowing the requirement imposed by the shipping carriers.

I would not be so hot about it if it was for the simple fact that they decided to use lesser quality packing for the RC 64 VS the RC 7. Furthermore, claiming they had no idea is a BS answer. Unless you leave in a bubble there is no way the company does not know about this problem. How many horror stories have you seen on this forum? Forum on which Klipsch employees are as active as most members

Would you buy a corvette with Yugo brakes and have the dealer tell " you were going to fast for those brakes so it is your fault if you wrecked the car ".

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We test our speakers for ASTM drop standards, unfortunately UPS expects goods to pass a 4 FOOT drop test. Which is rediculous. The shippers are also good at denying claims for shipping damage. Pallet shipping to dealers is definately safer.

I don't find fault in Klipsch for making them with plastic baskets. To me, the blame is on the shipping company. If I drop something in the store and it breaks, I can't go to the clerk and say you should have made a better product. I'm responsible. If I test drive a car and back into a pole, again, that's my problem, not the manufacturer of the car. Klipsch makes speakers that are capable of cranking at high volumes and as long as they can do that well and accurately, I'll put my blame on the shipping company.

Read my previous post on this but I will also add the following.

Could the shipping company do a better job? Sure they can but blaming them for your misunderstanding of there systems and rules is a little to easy.

There is a reason why they are requiring the goods to pass a 4 foot drop test, the fact that you do not know about it and did not comply with it is not there fault. If you do not agree with the rule then don't ship it.

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Would you by a corvette with Yugo brakes and have the dealer tell " you were going to fast for those brakes so it is your fault if you wrecked the car ".

That's not quite comparing apples to apples. The baskets do exactly what they are supposed to do, support the speaker and magnet during normal operation (playing music, watching movies etc). Being dropped is not normal operation. It would be like saying, "You buy a corvette with Yugo shocks. A wrecker comes to tow your car and while it was being towed, the chains come loose and the front end of the car comes crashing to the ground." The car is damaged not because of the Yugo shocks being inadequate, but because the wrecker is just that...a "wrecker". [:P]
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There is a reason why they are requiring the goods to pass a 4 foot drop test, the fact that you do not know about it and did not comply with it is not there fault. If you do not agree with the rule then don't ship it.

I guess I just have a hard time with companies not wanting to take responsibility for their own neglect. You find this everywhere. Everyone wants to release liability from themselves. If you mess up, own up. Just my opinion. :)

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I guess I just have a hard time with companies not wanting to take responsibility for their own neglect. You find this everywhere. Everyone wants to release liability from themselves. If you mess up, own up. Just my opinion. :)

My point excatly. You can not pack a speaker as heavy the RC 64 between two thin pieces of the cheapest material you can find, ship it across the country and expect it to get there in one piece At the risk to make a lot of people upset I will have to say klipsch is at fault as much as the carriers on this one

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" Furthermore, claiming they had no idea is a BS answer. Unless you
leave in a bubble there is no way the company does not know about this
problem. How many horror stories have you seen on this forum? Forum on
which Klipsch employees are as active as most members"

The Forum is a great place to learn about experience with Klipsch speakers. I learned a great deal here which served me well when I worked in Tech Support.
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Maybe the online retailer could take the order and Klipsch could send the speaker to the buyer direct from the factory. Maybe

Especially since the RC64 is manufactured right there in Hope Arkansas! He might be able to get them so fresh he could still smell the lacquer!

mmm lacquer mmm

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That's one problem, most of Tech Support spends next to NO time here anymore. Quick- how many Klispch Customer Support personnel can you name that come here on a regular basis? Trey and Thump are in Engineering, they don't count.

I found it hard to believe that the company would no be aware of this. Regardless, the forum is own and manage by Klipsch, as you point it out a few of the employees are on the forum and I would expect them to bring up to someone higher up.

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We test our speakers for ASTM drop standards, unfortunately UPS expects goods to pass a 4 FOOT drop test. Which is rediculous. The shippers are also good at denying claims for shipping damage. Pallet shipping to dealers is definately safer.

I don't find fault in Klipsch for making them with plastic baskets. To me, the blame is on the shipping company. If I drop something in the store and it breaks, I can't go to the clerk and say you should have made a better product. I'm responsible. If I test drive a car and back into a pole, again, that's my problem, not the manufacturer of the car. Klipsch makes speakers that are capable of cranking at high volumes and as long as they can do that well and accurately, I'll put my blame on the shipping company.

If anyone is to blame it is either myself, since I designed the Ref IV line, or the shipping carrier...

ASTM STANDARD

We test to a drop test standard but UPS chooses to "loosen" that standard for their issues...process of conveyers or just plain money saved. The ASTM standard requires drops at a certain distance on each the six facea and on of each of the corners. For this weight of 61 lbs plus carton which is about 65 lbs, I believe we dropped the carton at a distance of 18 inches. Now you may think that this is not very high, but this is a lot of kinetic energy, which would damage many floors. This drop is done on a concrete floor. There are corregated panels on two sides that are in excess of 1.5 inches I believe. To pass a 48 inch drop test would probably require side panels 3-4 inches thick with foam on the inside to vary the density. This would allow the velocity of the shock to shift more gradually.

Speaker Driver Design

The RC64 is a very HOT design for the motor structure. It is also shielded from stray magnetic flux so there is not only a large magnet but a bucking magnet and thick metal cap. On some models we even included a metal plate on the wall. The plastic basket we consider an upgrade. It is more expensive than a stamped metal frame. The reason we use it is to eliminate the short circuit that occures when using a metal frame. Maybe we could improve this frame by adding more radii and thickening the frame. There may be sharp edges or corners which promote stress areas. I doubt that much improvement can occur without a more robust frame structure to the cabinet to support the magets. That we may have to look at on the next version.

The down side of all this is that it will add cost in packaging and construction which would need to be passed onto the consumer. Will you still buy it if it is 20% more in cost? I guarantee that the sales numbers will go down. On top of all of this is the economy. If anything we might need to reduce the current cost on the next design. There are a lot of conflicting concerns here folks.

So that is the type of things that engineers have to think of on a daily basis. Can we improve on the current design? Certainly. Can the shipping companies do a better job of taking care of the package? Absolutely...

Best rules of thumb.

1. Buy Local

2. Inspect the product before you buy

3. Pay by credit card or check so you can dispute the charges.

4. Buy Klipsch, because we care! [:)]

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In theory I fully agree with you but that's not the point.

The point is; you meet the standard but it is not sufficient. For example I really think my RF 7 are worth $ 2000 used . What I think does not matter the market dictates what they are worth, same here with packing material. The ATSM standard is not cutting it, hiding behind it and ignoring the facts is pitifully way to handle business.

Of course the standard excuse/ scare tactic: would you be willing to pay 20% for better packing. Yes I would pay more for packing but saying it would cost 20 % more is not true.

The best packing I ever seen for a center channel was from a forum member. He had boxed a RC 7 in the original packing then had it in a larger box with the original box surrounded by strips of low density foam.

The cost of the packing additional packing was around $ 40 at the most and that is if all the materials were bought new at the store.

I have myself shipped numerous klipsch speakers double boxes surround by foam and I never had one damaged, that includes rf 7 rc 7 and rc 67, the most I ever spent on additional packing was $ 26.

Of course in the case of Klipsch they would make it in china with a high volume at a much lower cost.

So let's do the math here 20% of a $ 999 speaker is $ 200, cost of the extra packing at the most $ 40, would it make or break the sale of the speaker?

Very unlikely. I would go even further and ask the following: Why are you not providing packing good enough? So more of them can be destroyed and therefore you can sale more speakers?

I would like to point out a few other things

If klipsch did not have on line approved retailers I would definitely agree with the previous statement about buying local but that is not the case and I belive it is the company responsibility to make sure the packing can be shipped safely instead of blaming the retailers or the carriers for mishandling.

I do not mean do be a hard a$$ and pick on you, the forum is great, klipsch customer service is one of the best and having the employees being part of the forum is even better.

Dealing with customer satisfication is a though job and you guys are good at it, but the fact is by putting yourself in that situation you became the front line of the company, their hear and eyes, and through you the customer sees klipsch. It is your responsibility to bring the issue to a higher level in the company

Best rules of thumb.

1. Buy Local I would if I could

2. Inspect the product before you buy It goes without saying

3. Pay by credit card or check so you can dispute the charges. Very good advise, credit card company often provide goods insurance

4. Buy Klipsch, because we care! Smile I know you do and thank you for caring

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If anyone is to blame it is either myself, since I designed the Ref IV line,

1. Buy Local

4. Buy Klipsch, because we care! Smile

Whoever designed my RF-7s/RC-7RB-75s please tell them Thank you from me because they sound awesome. [H]

On a down note, I have a second RC-7 with my RB-75 system that I never realized had similar damage as the OP, but only one driver partially comes out. I didn't notice it until I went to sell it....I pointed out the damage to the purchaser and thought it was going to be an easy fix and guaranteed if he didn't think he could fix it I would take it back (and did).

I emailed Customer Service and won't go into that interesting chain events, but suffice it to say I didn't notice any ill effects and it is now back in my Bedroom HT because I wasn't going to lower the price and the only reason I tried to sell it was because someone local needed it....If I can drop it by Hope for an easy fix please PM because none of the local venders that I have purchased dozens of Klipsch speakers are open anymore. [:S]

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Both the RC-64 and the RC-7 can be shipped safely via FedEx (and perhaps UPS as well.)

BUT it costs BIG BUCKS.

The final (exterior) box ends up being HUGE.

FedEx calls it "oversize 3".

I shipped an "oversize 3" unit to Seattle Washington a few weeks ago...

Only 66 lbs yet it was $158 - My cost from FedEx plus $30 in packing materials (wholesale costs.)

It COULD have withstood a 5 foot drop. On any corner or side of the box.

It's all about "over packing" and the willingness to pay for something that might turn out to have been un-necessary.

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I have shipped lots of big speakers, and never had a problem, but to think any packing makes a difference is just silly. It's not the fall the breaks things lose inside, it's the sudden stop at the end. Sounds like you driver (fedex) doesn't like you. I really takes effort to do that kind of Damage........

But then again Lets just blame Thump!

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Whoever designed my RF-7s/RC-7RB-75s please tell them Thank you from me because they sound awesome. Cool

On a down note, I have a second RC-7 with my RB-75 system that I never realized had similar damage as the OP, but only one driver partially comes out. I didn't notice it until I went to sell it....I pointed out the damage to the purchaser and thought it was going to be an easy fix and guaranteed if he didn't think he could fix it I would take it back (and did).

I emailed Customer Service and won't go into that interesting chain events, but suffice it to say I didn't notice any ill effects and it is now back in my Bedroom HT because I wasn't going to lower the price and the only reason I tried to sell it was because someone local needed it....If I can drop it by Hope for an easy fix please PM because none of the local venders that I have purchased dozens of Klipsch speakers are open anymore. Tongue Tied

TKD,

If you only hear output out of one woofer this does not necessarily mean that it is damaged. The center channels for Reference Series have cascade networks. This means that one woofer crosses over lower in frequency than the second one. This allows the polar directivity to be more consistant when crossing into the horn.

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