Updating the Klipsch AA network - recapping, triamping and modding the squawker filter.

[kwingylee]

Fellow Klipsch-ofiles:

Since I bought by 77 Khorns and joined the forum, I have been enlighten by the useful suggestions of many of you. On the technical front, I very much appreciate the contributions of Al K, Bob Crites, DeanG and others. I have learned much from their posts.

I am in the process of deciding what to do with the type AA networks on the Khorns. Al's universal network is a great option, as well as simply replacing the 13uF and 2.2uF caps in the AA. Active XO is yet another.

Based on the comments here, several websites and the audiogon forums; as well as my own experience with Mundorf Silver Oil Supremes. I am leaning towards the Mundorf Supreme Mcaps for the straight cap replacement, taking advantage of audio connexion's current 20% discount. However, the price even with the discount is still only marginally lower than the DIY version of Al's ALK-Universals, which remain a strong contender.

Building ALK-U with all MUNDORF supreme caps will costs almost $500.00 for capacitors only sans inductors.

A striaght capacitor replacement of all AA caps using all MUNDORF supreme M-Caps is around $200.00.

Supreme Silver Oils are way out of my price.

I like AL's design philosophy to limit the upper frequency response of the K55V/K400 combo. It makes a lot of sense technically. However, the need to provide a constant impedance to the amplifier, to me at least, is not as important as all my amplifiers can source a lot of current. I am wondering if others on the forum have tried modifying only the squawker part of the AA by converting the original network to a second order bandpass and filtered frequencies above 4.5K to the sqawker while leaving the tweeter and woofer sections the same?

I used an online calculator to work out a possible configuration for the squawker. To convert the squawker filter to a bandpass will require only a simple LC network on the driver side of the T2A transformer and moving the tab. The L and C values are small This will add minimum costs to the AA network and its reversible. Has anyone tried this?

I am also interested in hearing anyone that is triamping the Khorn with an active XO. I have a 6 channel Parasound amp 1206 that I believe can do a good the job triamping the Klipschorn.

[Coytee]

I'm not positive but I think John Warren and Maron Horonzak (sp?) are triamping Khorns. I'm not aware of anyone else who might be doing that but then, I'm not 100% about these two.

[JL Sargent]

Don Richards is tri-amping Khorns too I think. I'm tube tri-amping some JBL/Klipsch horn speakers I put together.

I really have a ball "adjusting" my setup with the actives. I've noticed you can take horns lower with the steeper slopes actives can offer too. Not only getting freq. but with things like phase and time alignment only a button or knob away I have tried every combination. Have fun.

[kwingylee]

Sargent:

That is what I like too! A friend of mine uses a BBE DS26 to drive his 604Gs and it sounds great, The thing even has EQ that can be used to great effect and is a lot cheaper than all of the capacitors.....

Kwing

[JohnA]

Send a message to Bodcawboy and ask. I think he can spec a setting for the same electronic crossover the Jubilee uses, including time delay to time align the drivers. Kuol!

[nola]

Virtually everyone I have met or spoken to about true active crossover bi-amping my Khorns over the past year or 2 has told me, more or less emphatically, not to do it. Most said, little bang for the buck. When you consider the snake oil that many talk about, that is really saying something.

I have recapped Heresy Is, as memory serves me, little if any change noted. Maybe I was lucky on the old spam can caps. Recapped H IIs did sound a bit different, but also found a blown tweeter. Regardless, pre recap, the HIs and HIIs did not sound alike. Now they do sound more alike. My 1970s Khorns might have been recapped in the early 80s before I bought them over 20 yrs ago. I only recapped 1 so far, and no change in sound. I tested my old LaScala with spam cans. About 1 dB down vs the KH recap on the analog RS SPL meter. Both were AA networks. So I have not recapped the LSs yet.

Plan to test newly make ALK Unis on the KH today. In short, old caps can sometimes be ok, sometimes not. I feel happier knowing that my stuff is within spec now. The ALK has an autotransformer that can be used to adjust how hot or cold you want the mid range horn to run. I am not an engineer, so I don't know why these networks don't have one AT for each component. Maybe due to cost? Also, the component builders will have to answer as to when simply decreasing the size of a capacitor to soften up a component is the best method vs adding resistors, ATs, etc. Apparently the parts for the xovers can get pricey.

Also, if your stuff is old, like mine, check the ohms across the drivers and check the rubber / gaskets / etc on the woofers. I only did that on my Heresys as the woofers are easily checked. They were ok. I have not done this on the KHs nor LSs. However, despite being 30 plus years old and being non TLC'd during Katrina, they sound good. I do not want to tear off the old rubber woofer door gaskets for nothing. Forget about turning the LSs over to enter the "doghouse" just for fun.

Pre-Katrina, various folks had told me to give biamping a whirl, but I am not certain that they understood what true multi amping meant (vs some form of bi-wire). However, where are you going to get the active x over required and at ? $300+ per speaker ? cost too. Colter has an active xover, I think, on his jubs (2 way). But like Noah, he has 2 of everything.

What I might consider doing later this year is a bit different than the Qs you pose, but might require the same active xover network device: -- how to balance the various frequencies delivered by the speakers to the sweet spot of my couch, in my room. I think my goal would be to have various frequency test tones of equal loudness delivered to the couch. (Not sure how something determined to be flat on somebody else's system can be relied on in another system, in another room, etc. Not even sure where to find such test tones; needs a google I guess). Not sure if all the time and bother -- and cost would be worth it.

To do the Xover, http://www.groundsound.com/dcn23kit.php is a 550 euro/about $800 shipped potential solution. Behringer dcx2496 costs $300 at partsexpress. The Behringer deq2496 is the same cost. However, I do not know how many speakers can be Xovered or EQd per groundsond / behringer device ?just 1, / 2 / 3? http://www.madisound.com/forum/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=2&topic_id=2938&mesg_id=2938&page= has a posting about this stuff. For doing anything beyond the 2 main speakers, the cost could get well out of hand.

It would be interesting what the xover network builders here have to say about this. Al K has an over $1000 extreme slope network and I just built a Universal from a kit. How would these compare to a digital set up, like the Behringer dcx and deq combo?

Just a few thoughts on a wickedly hot weekend. NOLA

[ClaudeJ1]

Nola,

You can do active tri-amping by just getting a larger barrier strip and having 3 inputs. By splitting and having for each section going through the passive network. T amps for the top 2 horns and something beefier for the woofer. Then you get the gain control per section you are looking for without messing with the response curve by messing with cap values. PWK didn't believe in adjustments because he knew the average idiot would screw up the carefully balanced sound from the factory sound by having that control. Now that geekdom on the web is rampant and we the lay people have access to measurment equipment (cheap), then his original premise would not be true today for many.

[nola]

Claude

I did my Fellowship at U of M: GO WINGS!!

I think we need to chat, unless you can post an explanation of exactly how to do this and the equip't required.

Thanx

NOLA

[kwingylee]

Nola:

Thanks for the detail write up. I am far from settle on anything.

Which caps did you used tp recap?

Can't wait for your impression on the ALK-Us.

Kwingylee

[nola]

I used Sonicaps. Purchased 3 kits from Bob Crites. Price was more than fair considering the advice given to a noob. I did call him a few times. I do not remember the source of the 68 uF cap for the Heresy II. Solen, Madisound, Munson and others are websites and maunf folks. Prices vary widely. I do not know what Dean G uses nor Popbumper. My ALK kit included Solens, Sonicap and Hovland. No idea where ALK found the Hovland. Amazingly wide variation in cap prices. I guess, like anything else, you get what you pay for. I think with ALK testing the caps, the side to side matches are better. My main room was too hot test the Uni this weekend. But it is raining in New Orleans now, so maybe tonight.

NOLA