bi-wiring

[veloceleste]

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[sivadselim]

I just picked up an older pair of Vandersteen 2Ci which are designed to be at minimum bi-wired. There are two sets of banana inputs with no jumpers. I made a set of jumpers and I'm listening to them this way right now. When I get a chance to bi-wire I'll see if there is a difference. In the past I have bi-wired and bi-amped other speaker brands. The bi-wiring seemed to give subtle improvement while bi-amping provided noticable improvement.

Vandersteen insists those speakers be bi-wired. There used to be quite a bit of info (propaganda?) on their website regarding bi-wiring,

/shrugs

[Barmitag]

I know this may seem long, but let me preface this with;

This is my opinion, I can very well be wrong, I’m no internet hero.

Better is an opinion.

Just because you can hear it, doesn’t mean I can, and just because I can, doesn’t mean you can.

And more importantly, just because one of us thinks we can, doesn’t mean we really can, or can repeatabley.

And just because we can’t repeatably, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make a difference you can hear… sometimes.

Less of a loss is usually better, but how much of the loss can have an affect on the actual audio range, how much of a loss can anyone hear, how much can most people hear, and how much can I hear, is another thing altogether Some people may actually like the effects of a loss.

Just because something makes a difference in the radio frequencies etc, doesn’t mean it will in the audio frequencies, and at the distances and wire guages we use. Different, doesn’t mean better.

A better high end for eg, can actually mean a lesser low end. And most importantly, most people think they have great hearing, because they can hear everything that they can hear, duh. No one thinks they have a hearing problem until the doctor says so, and even then, they argue with him.

So… I’m setting up for a new Home Theater, and decided to use a #14x4 conductor speaker wire, basically as the #14x4 available to me, was the only in-wall rated wire I could get, I couldn’t get 2x12, and besides, two #14s are less resistance with more current capacity then one #12. So my plan, red and white together at both ends, and black and green at both ends… Immediately I get “Are you going to bi-wire it? It’s better you know…” So I ask them, “Can YOU actually say that you can hear a difference?” and I get a no. I always got a no (the guys in the shops know I will challenge them to put it to the test). But if it’s even supposedly better, even if I can’t hear it, I already have the wire to do it, it’s no more work, and no more money, I’m curious. And why not? (Sadly there’s way too much of that in audio though, because then people justifying why the did it, “Oh yeah, it’s better, I didn’t waste my time and money, nope, you just don’t have a dogs ears like I do”).

So I started looking into it, and I’m not finding a lot of people with valid sounding answers. Note that a lot of audiophiles have zero electrical/electronic knowledge, education and experience and are just repeating what they’re heard parroted around by others who really don’t know either, and may times these rumors have been so polished by so many people, they sound pretty convincing. Like the Kennedy theories and Bush/Iraq war theories… And worse, the vast majority of salesmen who have zero real electrical/electronic training and knowledge, are hearing the same rumors, and want to make a buck… and I’m not even including the guys who are just trying to rip you off, try to sell you the “better” wire. Note also that most low end speakers can't be bi-wired, most mid to fairly hi end stuff can... but all the ridiculous (to me anyway) stuff doesn't seem to be.

So on to the actual Wiring:

Non Bi-Wire; If I have a long run of four identical wires, with, say 2 ohms resistance each (just for easy numbers, it won’t be that high, unless it’s nearly a thousand feet), that’s 8 ohms resistance in wire, say. If I connect them as two pairs like I plan, those 8 ohms of wire, become two pair of 1 ohm each, (2 ohms in parallel is 1ohm, times 2 for each length). So one + wire (a pair) to the speaker is one ohm, and the - wire with the other pair at one ohm, making only two ohms in wire. Also, as we all know, the vast majority of power goes to the lower frequencies (lets say 70%), which means you’ll be able to push through 70% of the capacity of all four wires, that’s a lot of potential current. Capacitance and reactance will only be across the now two differing conductors.

With Bi-Wire, I’ve got four wires, pairs only connected at one end, so I’ll have all 8 ohms of wire resistance in-line, (instead of 2! Four times the resistance.), which will affect the amp, (the damping factor will drop etc). If 70% of the current is low end, it’s now only able to run down two #14 wires, instead of two pairs of #14. I’ll have capacitance and reactance across all four wires (in a four conductor cable, evenly spaced, which is worse then two separate pairs apart), all ways… 1 to 2, 1 to 3, 1 to 4, 2 to 1, 2 to 3, 3 to 4 etc… So my guess at best, is the extra resistance in the wire will isolate the woofers voltage drop due to impedance shifts from the tweeter, more of a voltage device, keeping it’s voltage a bit more steady, but at a huge deficit to the woofer…

So when Soundstage in 1998 said: "There should (notice they said should) be more clarity and detail to the midrange and high frequencies. Often the bass becomes less fat in nature, becoming both a bit faster and tighter. Focus and staging should improve nicely as well. You may notice less congestion in dynamic or complex passages. In all, this is a very effective and desirable improvement and only requires the investment in a second set of speaker cables," it kind of makes sense, you’ve lost bottom end (and power), which will clean up your top end (maybe a touch, maybe), less lows make it less muddy (if you have it set that way), and that gives the illusion of faster tighter bass.

Now what it does at the crossover… is another thing altogether…

But basically, anyone (and I will when I’m setup) with a bi-wired setup, can easily use a pair of banana plugs to short out the + to + , and – to – at the speaker and see if they hear a difference… but I doubt it, and if they do, it’s more a loss of bottom making the top stand out more thing.

IMHO and I can be wrong.

[mlpdmark]

Hi I just have joimed this site but have been into audio, guess you could say my drug of choice, since 8th grade continualing seeking improvement in my system. I am now 54. Please forgive me if I have misunderstood your question as I am only sharing what i have learned the long way over the years. This IMO. That being said, what I have wound up with is a biamped system using using 2 QS silver series 90 mono tube amps for the mid-treb and 2 crown ps200 briged mono for the bass to drive my mg3a maggies. Other than the advantage of 4 seperate amps the real improvement and I don't mean subtle is at what point you Xover the signal. In comes biwiring. I strongly recommend, and I have tried it the most common way also, is to crossover after the preamp and before the amplifiers then biwiring the spk ( 2 pair wires, one for mid treb and one for low). I am assuming you are using 2 amps. If you aren't bi-amping with an external xover The only reason I know of to biwire is to use an out board Xover (1 pair in and two pair out with the with the frequencys split, a low pass filt.) supplied with the spks or an aftermarket one of better quality. This is why Vanderstine instists on biwiring, the xover in the cabinet is not complete and there goes sound quality. Simply put, I belive you'd be operating with a incomplete xover.

The advantage of xovering after the preamp and before the amp (not possible with integrateds far as i know) is you do not waste any of the amplified signal. Your amps see and only amplifys the xovered preamp signal which gives great improvement in head room clarity, s stage etc.and applies it to the matchig drivers. You are not taking an amplifed signal and filtering the signal thus wasting amplified engery from your amp and trying to compensate with increased volume. I do this with a Bryston 10b xternal xover and the improvement was way worth the investment. My understanding of biwiring a speaker was for the ability to use 2 amps and or a xternal xover..... and sounds like you are missing the xternal low pass xover supplied with the spks?

Hope I was of some help.

I just spoke with a bud that happened to call and told him what I was doing and he educated me that often times when speakers are factory able to be biwired there is a jumper or wire or change needed to be done to the existing xover to enjoy the sonic beneffits