HornEd Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 Well, the deal is made, and now the task is to build a music system worthy of Mr. Paul's pets. I cut my teeth on mono and stereo hit about the same time as the military draft... so I bought my first stereo in a PX in France. So I would like to start a system that would bring the best out of a pair of late model Walnut Klipschorns for two channel... and then be able to fire up the Belle for a little of that old time Mr. Paul three channel "stereo"... then be able to shift again to full blown multi-channel music by bringing in the vintage Cornwell I's. It's been almost two decades without a K-horn in the house... and this HornEd is pumped and so is his mom (err, that's not a recent avatar of her) as you can see from the photo. I will be building a new music room so any architectural, acoustics or psychoacoustics ideas are more than welcome. I would appreciate any and all suggestions... except those that would make BobG blush ! HornEd ------------------ HORNED'S EIGHT THEATRICAL LEGENDS, FIVE MUSICAL HERITAGES & A ROADIE... FOREGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Main, Center Main, Right Main KLF C7's: L & R Front Effects on 5' sand filled columns BACKGROUND SOUND STAGE: KLF 30's: Left Surround, Rear Effects, Right Surround LARGE MOUTH BASS: Twin SVS CS-Ultra SubTower, Samson Megawatt Amp KLIPSCH SPEAKER SUPPORT SYSTEMS: Bass friendly, oversized, glove-leather LazyBoy Recliners Mitsubishi RPHD1080i 65", Yamaha RX-V3000 Receiver Toshiba Pro Scan 6200, Toshiba Pro 6-head SVHS W808 2, 3 or 5 CHANNEL MUSIC IN MATCHING WALNUT Klipschorn Mains, Belle Klipsch Center, Cornwall Rears Under construction. Tubular Research continues... Yamaha 5-disc & Kenwood 200-disc DVD/CD players Klipsched Class "A" Motorhome: On the road testing This message has been edited by HornEd on 02-28-2002 at 03:56 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike stehr Posted February 27, 2002 Share Posted February 27, 2002 That's Good! LOL! You Folks aren't from San Fransisco, are you?!!! Good luck on your quest, HE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazman Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 HornEd, quote: I will be building a new music room .......... What a way to go! Starting with a clean sheet of paper for a music room and a pair of Khorns. You've got my attention! Keep us informed. Klipsch out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 I'm so happy you're happy HornEd. It's good you took the package deal (with the Belle) or those beasts would be sitting in my house! It looks like buying these is a major event in your household bordering on a religious experience!! With me, it would have been more of a novelty as - I pretty much just wanted to experiment with them. I'm not sure my sissy ears could have handled the pressure You already have a great HT room. Why not just concentrate on seeing how good you can make 2 K-horns sound? Dean, This message has been edited by deang on 02-28-2002 at 10:07 AM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Thanks, deanG (hmm, inspired caps!)... I thought I saw the edsters post first and raced to put up a reply... and when I did yours was already there! I considered dropping out because K-horns have been part of my past and ought to be part of your future. But, I have waited a long time to introduce K-horns & Belles to my 94 year-old mom... and I have just put in over five years training the "Theater of her Mind" to hear beyond a Morning Glory Edison Horn of the family farm in WWI. My father always thought that record players were a plot to steal your money... so, mom's only high fidelity experiences came from visiting my son or me. I finally decided that as patient as she has been... it is probably her turn! A decent two channel experience has long been a necessity in my world... hence the existing Cornwall Music & Computer Room... where my ears know joy while my fingers clack out these words. So, a two channel future for the K-horns is assured... as much as things can be assured in the temporal world. But, it would also be fun to have the option to explore Mr. Paul's notions of three channel stereo. And since the new Music Room site is expected to be a large multi-purpose "socialization" center... having a third option for expanding the sweet spot with higher end multi-channel a la Dr. Floyd Toole seems like a thing to be able to do when it comes time to party! Of course, the Legend HT has earned its right to continue with the flicks... particularly since the converted KLF-30 took its rightful place atop the big screen... and the 7' dual sub tower began its awesome "under"statement... and the C7 Front Effects finally got tweaked into ecstasy. I hope it is not a religious experience... I need to my head free to visualize clear into next tweak! HornEd This message has been edited by HornEd on 03-01-2002 at 07:24 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Garrison Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Using the guiding principle that nothing succeeds like excess, may I humbly offer the following suggestion for a THX 6.1 channel setup... Can I come listen? Ray ------------------ Music is art Audio is engineering Ray's Music System Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Ray, I you must be virtually honking my horns... or comedic pulls upon my leg... or both! Actually, I did do a theoretical sketch of six horns and a 30" Tom Vodhanel signature four woofer tube sub... but that is still on the fantasy side of the ledger. Although I have been known to take flights of fancy at the drop of an opportunity... this time around I would like to get the most out of experimenting with a mixture of K-horns, Belle, and Cornwalls.... with the objective being music rather than HT. For the moment, the Legends seem to have that base covered to my satisfaction. With about two dozen Klipsch loudspeakers now in my possession, I have an opportunity to explore the shades and nuances of a timeline of Klipsch industry in sound... for who has been more industrious than Mr. Paul and the Klipsch family? Ray, you are an engineer after my own heart... your comments bring back memories of so many wonderful engineering adventures with my staff in bygone years. So, you are always welcome to lend an ear or hazard a comment. May the good times in your head become the good times in your life. Let those good times roll... If it weren't for wretched excess how would we know when we should have had enough? HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Ed, you and I have the same system in mind ... as you know, I don't have the room for it yet (lest I put a floor over the garage, sans dormers). But, that hasn't kept me from thinking about a layout ... In the architectural section of this board, it gets discussed quite often. Here's a post I carry in my Handspring: "There ARE "golden ratios" of L, W and H. However, I would (and did) look at the shapes of famous, good sounding performance halls. They all seem to have a ceiling that's not parallel to the floor and often non-parallel side walls. By all means ensure none of your dimensions are integer multiples of each other, i.e. 8' ceiling and a 16' wall. This will help prevent standing waves (resonance). If I were building a new house, the listening room would have a trapazoidal shape with the TV in the small end and the ceiling would stair-step it's way from ~12 high in the back to about 8' high in the front (TV end). A room like this would have few resonances and the ceiling would act as a diffuser for the reflections it had. The small end would have to be at least 10 feet wide. This ceiling should be fairly easy to build and finish with sheetrock. The triangles left by the angle of the side walls would be for the electronics and storage. John" For myself, I am thinking a large living room (maybe 35 to 40' wide, with about 20' of depth, 10' high in the front, and 30' high in the back (with a clerestory on top of the high back wall). My grandfather had a room just like it in his house (overlooking Goguac Lake in Battle Creek), and his McIntosh gear and AR speakers would just fill that room up. If I had the money and the blank piece of paper, that's the direction in which I would go, and die happy. The problem right now is that I'm loving tubes ... and 5.1, 6.1 or 7.1 requires solid state preamps (as far as I know ... someone correct me). I'm driving my Cornwalls and Heresies with Anthem tube amps off the Denon SS preamps, and things just aren't as warm. Now a 7 channel tube pre-amp would be the ticket. Just hang your sound processor on the pre-amp, then drive one of thoes AES 5-channel SET amps. Sweet. ------------------ If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM AES AE-25 "Superamp" AES AE-3 Pre-amp New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hi Ed, Nothing of real substance to add here. Just wanted to inform that the Klipschorn mains, Belle center and Cornwall rears is the exact setup I am currently running for that 'HT' experience. It does not disappoint! My HT room is a modest 20x20. Barely big enough. The eventual (5 year plan?) is to push out the 'viewing wall' about 10 ft and either widen a tad or perhaps reconfig so the the Khorns can settle into the corners proper. Only other thing I would highly recommend is to upgrade (if you don't already have) your video to the grandeur befitting an all Heritage PWK audio setup. That way you don't have 'holy toledo' audio matched with 'ah, that's cool' video. I don't have anything fancy for a front projector as you can get carried away with high end projectors that really offer only 'hair splitting' differences to a modest priced ($2000 - $3000) DLP projector. Mine is an InFocus 350 and it provides all the grandeur I can stomach. NO, all you paranoids, I'm not a 'shill' for InFocus! Just damn impressed with the picture quality (It's HD compatible) and want to pass on my impressions. Take it for what it's worth to you! Screen size is 10ft x 5ft which at 15 feet back fills your field of vision perfectly. Good luck on your project! ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 edwarde, That is a great looking room! Also the cabinets on the Khorns are really impressive...did you do the wood work? Also, are the bass bins of the Khorns enclosed with anything or are the sides open to the room really open? Just curious, very nice setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Chris, thanks for pulling that old post out of the archives... I remember it well. Mr. Paul had some comments of "idealized" listening rooms but that was even before the days of his three channel stereo approach as I recall. Lately, my thoughts have been strongly influenced by Dr. Toole after a tip from BobG. Toole is also highly regarded by TV of SVS fame. Floyd E. Toole, P.hD. A transplanted Brit, Dr. Toole spent many years researching your questions in Canada before accepting a VP post at Harmon. You can read his "White Papers" on the subject at http://www.harman.com/wp/index.jsp?articleId=default My eyes will be full of reading Toole's approaches as my ears stay preoccupied with Steve Morse. Toole just seems to be way ahead of anyone else from a room accoustics perspective. While he is an engineer's engineer... he also speaks plainly and cuts through the BS in a heartbeat. Before you commit to a new room, check him out... there is a lot on him on the web! Edwardre, I think I will limp along with the RPHD 65" Mitsubishi in 480p for a while. I remember InFocus products from when the company first started and have used and enjoyed them along the way. Remember, though, I have the Mitsu in the HT with my herd of Legends... and the K-horns, Belle, and Cornwalls are headed for another part of the house... where music rules. Seeing your beautiful K-horns & Belle gets me excited all over again. It's been over a decade since my K-horns... I just hope that my delicious memories do not overload the '97 Khorn reality. Thanks for sharing. And, edster00, you and my speakers are on my mind! I've enjoyed our chats and can confidently say you are the first Hot Air Balloon Pilot I have known that has confined all the "hot air" to the balloon. It's a pleasure doing business with you, sir. Only a safe arrival will straighten my smiley! HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HornEd Posted February 28, 2002 Author Share Posted February 28, 2002 Chris, I chanced upon this excerpt from an email to my son. It reflects upon the early musings of Paul Klipsch on ideal rooms that I had mentioned earlier. Enjoy... but do check out Dr. Toole... Mr. Paul Klipsch in a technical writing titled "Room Dimensions for Optimum Listening and the Half Room Principal" (dated Aug 1955) states the following: 1) In designing a new house, the music room should be planned with a 32 foot diagonal, or as nearly that minimum as expedient. It is suggested that the ancient "golden mean ratio" apply with, for example, a length of 27 feet, width of 17 feet, and a height of 10 feet, or some reasonable and feasible approach to those figures as in figure 2. This "room" is the limit of the ratio of adjacent terms in the Fibonacci series. The application for either single speaker or stereophonic would be good in a room of this size and shape." The article goes on to state that the speakers should be placed along the 27' wall for maximum imaging and so the bass note can more fully develop. Mr. K also is a proponent of a center channel speaker (Yes, it started way back then... its not a new principle just for home theater) to improve imaging - to have a curtain of sound. End of excerpt... HornEd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Hey thanks for the kind words edster00. The Khorns are pre-55's. I would place their date by the components inside at '52, '53 or perhaps '54's. The only evidence that they are the real McCoy are the proliferation of 'approved by PWK' faded yellow labels on all pieces, drivers, networks and horns. They were passed on to me by my father who told me eons ago (before I was conciously aware of what they were) that they were custom built by Klipsch. I remember as a youth they had real cane grilles. Walnut. Oiled. He had evidently had one built prior to stereo, when Klipsch apparently did some custom builds, then hauled it back to hope around 1959 and had them build another to match with the same components as was in the first one. He was always in awe of how ablidging and 'customer oriented' the facility was then. Admittedly, they need proper corners. The 'roomward' side has been sealed up with 3/4" ply until I can do the false wall thing or something else. ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 edwarde, If I understand your room setup, it appears the "axis" of the horns crosses in front of your seating position, is that correct? Have you done any trials where you angle the Khorns more into the center of the room so that you are looking more "down the throat" of the squawker and tweeter? I don't have good corners for my Khorns and I enclosed the bass bins with 3/4" MDF and I find if I angle the Khorns more toward my seating I get a better defined soundstage, depth of sound etc. When I finish the basement that the Khorns are relegated to I plan on building false corners to accomodate "aiming" the speakers more toward the seating area. It's just a thought, I am sure your set up sounds awesome with the Belle center and what I am contemplating with my 2 channel may not translate to 3 or more channels. I may have to try the Heritage Klipsch multi-channel setup to see what all the fuss is about. I have Khorns, Belles and Heresy's for a starting point... Anyway, I think those are about the most attractive Khorns I have seen to date! This message has been edited by edster00 on 02-28-2002 at 09:38 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WMcD Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Regarding room acoustics and K Horns. I built some K Horns and tested them in an outside corner. The response in the bass was rolling off and decided my work was inferior to the original. I went to altenate drivers and generally ruminated in frustration. Later, Klipsch and Delgato published their paper on the development of the Jubilee. In the paper, there are curves on the K-Horn in a similar outdoor setting. The curves were similar to mine. The point is that the K-Horn is very much relying on room modes below 100 Hz to keep the bass level up. The bottom line is that if you're getting into room design for the K-Horns, it might be imperitive to design in room boost, rather than design it out. Gil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBrennan Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Ray---As long as you're fantasizing the whole hog why putz around with those little SVSs? How about some Servo-Drive Basstech basshorns? www.servodrive.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCOOTERDOG Posted February 28, 2002 Share Posted February 28, 2002 Outstanding Ed! As the proud(Original)owner of a pair of 1981 La Scala's. You must be extremely happy to get these bad boys up and running. Whether you use them for stereo or full blown 6.1 system you got to admit that there is nothing like the sound you get from your KH or LS. I truely believe my home system sounds better then then most movie theaters. I too built my own Home Theater Room. Check out the photo's of my HT room in the Odds & Mods forum ------------------ Denon AVR 3801 Onkyo M504 Power Amp driving the mains Techenique A-10 DVD Audio/Video Player Pioneer DVL-909 Laserdisc/Dvd Player Dish Network Dolby Digital Sat receiver Klipsch La Scala ( Mains) Klipsch RFC5 Center Klipsch RSS6 Surround Side Klipsch RSS .5 Back surround Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Robinson Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 Ed, thanks for that additional info ... I recall the Fib sequence discussion in another post somewhere. I've got your post on my handheld for future reference! ------------------ If you don't like what is coming out, you wouldn't like what is going in." -PWK- --------------------- TWO-CHANNEL SYSTEM AES AE-25 "Superamp" AES AE-3 Pre-amp New Tube 4000 CD Player 1976 Klipschorns (ALK'ed) HOME THEATER Klipsch 1968 ALK Cornwall "II"s (LF/RF) ALK Belle Klipsch (Center) Klipsch Heresy (RR/LR) Klipsch KSW-12 sub Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Cornwalls) Sonic Frontiers Anthem AMP1 (driving Heresy's) Denon AVR-4800 Toshiba SD-3109 DVD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwardre Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 edster00 - Those pics are several months old. I have since experimented with 'toeing in' my KHorns a wee bit. Bear in mind that as 'elderly' khorns, they came with the curved, almost 'sectoral' type of midhorn that fills the upper apeture completely, rather than the 'newer' straight horn that is currently used. As you know, this mid-horn has a much smaller apeture and is 'straight sided' lending (IMHO) to a much 'tighter focused beam' of sound. There is a single one of these horns on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1335744118 so you can get an idea of the difference between the straight vs. the curved horn 'mouth'. The diff in dispersion is very noticeable. Pronounced. Spacious. Grand. I can personally attest to this as I replaced the mid-horn and all the drivers in my center Belle to mirror the cornerhorns in an effort to more closely match the sonic qualities. Really opened up the 'sweet spot'. Bottom line is that I did not notice a pronounced difference when I toe'd in. ------------------ Ed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edster00 Posted March 1, 2002 Share Posted March 1, 2002 edwarde, Now you've done it ! Why oh why did you have to tell me about that squawker's shape and dispersion? Now I am probably either going to have to find a pair of Khorns of an earlier vintage that have that type of horn, or buy the one on ebay and find a mate for it! Will those horns fit in a '78 pair of Khorns? I also decided that my next pair of Cornwalls will have to be the early Cornwall II with the vertical horns. All kidding aside, thanks for the information about your pair of Khorns, I learn something new every day. Best regards! This message has been edited by edster00 on 03-01-2002 at 06:16 PM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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