RSW-15 and F113

[DrWho]

So Ilkka's measurements show the F113 doing 101dB at 20Hz with over 20% THD.

As far as that second link...

This is important to note because my measurements reflect
the room that they were taken in. What's more important is that all the subs
here were measured in the same room, so no one subwoofer had an advantage. The
measurements were taken with a 1.5GHz PC running SpectraLab Pro. The samples
were measured with a calibrated microphone using C weighting. Distance from the
corner of the room to the listening position was roughly 12 feet, in a room a little under
3600 ft³. Frequency sweeps were run from 10 Hz to 100 Hz. The volume was raised
little by little until the sonic quality started to change.

C weighting happens to be 6dB down by 20Hz...

http://www.noisemeters.com/help/faq/frequency-weighting.asp

Adding 6dB at 20Hz to the second link puts the RSW-15 at 6dB
down relative to everything else, which happens to coincide with
Klipsch's spec. I've
measured three different RSW-15's in very different rooms and the F3
has always been well below 20Hz (but of course there is some room gain
there).

The RSW-15 can do 121dB at 30Hz in 1/8space, which would
be 115dB as measured by Ilkka. The RSW-15 is at most 6dB down at 19Hz
(but let's call it 20), which puts its max output to 109dB peak. 2400W
is about 6dB more than 650W (actually less), so you can figure that the
RSW-15 can do 103dB continuous at 20Hz (taking into account the
continuous rating of the amplifier).

That's about 2dB more than the F113 and I can guarantee that it will be lower than 20% THD.

[TheEAR]

DrWHO,

SOME room gain,excuse me SOME! In a room any room there PLENTY of room gain. A sub will measure as much as 10dB higher below 30hz ...take that same great performer GP ...outside and watch the performance drop like a stone.

One thing I agree and...we all use our subs inside and not GP so...[]

Yes the RSW15 is a cleaner sub,however measured GP the f113 as pesky as it is has more output(before audible distortion makes itself known)kicks in.

Good to have someone to argue a bit. Nothing personal.

Now changing the subject a bit...what brands(models) of studio monitors do you prefer? Yes studio monitors,strictly for monitoring and as "flat" say neutral as possible.I have purchased Genelec's 8030's and 8050's as well as the larger 1039's(third largest and still huge and ...ah mucho moolah...too much).I find these babies are very neutral and sound amazing. The new Yamaha MSP and HS series are quite good(for the price) again quite neutral(with the small irregularities that made the classic Yamah NS10M so popular ).

Next KH(Klein + Hummel) caught my attention , very Genelec like. Dynaudio's AIR lineup is quite something too,these have that non fatiguing top end that while not as clinical as the KH or Genelec does not detract from neurality...too much. KRK's nothing special,in fact too rolled off(I did not hear the Expose).

ADAM are very nice,incredible detail thanks to the tweeter they use and in the upscale models the great Hexacone mid-bass(ETON?).A bit fatiguing ,the rest all being good.

I have to listen to some upscale JBL's and TAD.

[DrWho]

It's all in good fun - I hope my posts come off that way too.

The
Genelec monitors are pretty good. I can also get good results with the
Mackie 824. I haven't liked any of the KRK or Alesis speakers I've come
across - there's just something weirdly rounded to their sound - it's
hard to describe. Some of the oldDunlavy's are real nice too.

At
the end of the day, every studio monitor has its own flavor so I'm of
the opinion that you need a few different monitors so that you can hone
in on different areas of the music.

In the past, the majority of
my tracking has actually been performed with Realistic Minimus 7's.
They're only good between 100Hz and maybe as high as 10kHz, but they're
not at all fatiguing and also make a good car audio reference. I get
90% of my mic placement and compression settings done on the 7's and
then switch over to something like a Mackie or Genelec to smooth out
the last 10%. I monitor with the nicer speakers at 85dB and then about
70dB with the Minimus 7's.

I also run with a pair of AKG K240
headphones....they're the driest things on the planet so you know
you're there when you can get nice clean fat bass out of them.

I don't think I'd listen to any studio monitor in the home though. I'm just not a big fan of nearfield listening for enjoyment.

To
kinda get it back on topic, I dunno if I'd use either the RSW-15 or the
F113 in a studio environment. I usually turn off the sub when mixing
for music (until the producer or the band wants to list to a few cuts).
I think getting the bass right in the studio is one of the hardest
parts of mixing because it's so dominated by the room and most studios
are way too small....not to mention you have no control or knowledge of
the rooms the final customers will be listening in.

I would like to hear some of the JBL monitors again sometime. I heard a couple a long time ago and was rather put off by them. I think it was a 4380 or something like that? I'm so bad at remembering numbers and I'm too lazy to look them up. They had the buttcheek tweeter and dual woofers to the side.

I didn't know TAD made studio monitors?

[TheEAR]

DrWHO,

Thanks for the honest repply,I apreciate and value good input. KRK have what I call a round(gently rolled)top end ,the popular ROOKIT are not accurate at all.If people only knew how much better Yamaha monitors are...if they only left fabricated prejudice at home.

Realistic's Minimus 7's are classics,I had a pair in white...gave them away. The RatShack had them on special for $99/pair back in the 90's and at that time I was very impressed with my purchase.Then they came with the Minimus 77 if memory serves me well, the mid-bass a 5" in the place of the 4" all in a larger alu cabinet.

For headphones I tend to favor AKG of late(701's), but prefer open back cans(homeuse of course).

Yes TAD does make monitors(at least for the Japanese/Asian/Euro markets mostly).They are very expensive(well what upscale monitors are not) from what I have gathered frompeople who used them...very JBL like.Since they are based(inspired...) by JBL.

[askbob1]

DrWHO and TheEAR,

Since I think both of your attention(s) are here, how would, say, the svs pb ultra 13, klipsch rsw-12, klipsch rw 12d, and any of the higher end velodynes compare to the likes of the two we have been talking about here? Having not actually hear the pb ultra 13, I am thinking it might do it for me simply because I prefer the ported sound a bit more. I really don't have the time for the diy route, or I would. Probably two commercially available subs is what I'll end up with.

Speaking of the Realistic Minimus 7's, Without digging them out and looking at the front panel, I had a very good sounding 2-way speaker set that had the nameplate of acoustic designs, but the drivers and the back tag were branded realistic. 8" driver and small tweeter. Very tight sound.

[TheEAR]

askbob1,

SVS's Ultra13 has more output below 30hz than the f113, in its "natural" 20Hz tune. When you start blocking the ports to change the tune(lower it) you end up with an underported sub. The best use of the SVS Ultra13 is in the native 20hz tune,all three ports open. With room gain we en up with solid output down to around ~14hz.

There are plenty of options in quality subs these days.The Ultra13 being near the top in terms of price/performance.

[Pete H]

I love my RSW 15 and think that in my listening/home theater room, it works brilliantly. I have listened to it and have owned a few others and auditioned SVS and also have a Velodyne and the RSW is the one that works for me. At the end of the day, it's all about you and when you turn it on and say to yourself, damn, that sounds good. I'm biased and I think it looks great too, but I have a ton of copper cones staring at me from every direction. I picked mine up, in pristine condition for $600, and short of it puking in the future, have no desire to look at anything else.

[doittoit]

I have a pair of LaScala's and an RSW-12 in a 7200 cubic foot room on an Anthem A5/Anthem D2 listening to music via squeezebox, moview on Panasonic DMP-BD55. I just auditioned an F113 at home this past weekend - had to return the shop's demo this morning. I ordered the f113 after listening for 2.5 hours.

I was blown away by what I hear in music (I was happy with my current sub for movies, but it just muddied up the music, so I was running the lascala's full range). I've researched and talked to people about what would mate best with my LaScala's and I had been told if anything will keep up with the transient response of a fully horn-loaded speaker, the f113 will. Boy does it ever. Wife was impressed also both on movies and music (come to find out, she never thought we were getting the SUB out of what I now call "my old subwoofer").

Cranked it all the way up on Crystal Method's Legion of Boom - they're not kidding about the 4" peak to peak excursion - pretty freaky to see. Did listening to some Chopin polonaises, Liszt hungarian rhapsodies just to see how well the sub integrated with my mains (crossed over as recommended by Barry Ober from JL at 80 Hz) on piano - breathtaking. Listened to Dave Brubeck's Time Out (for the 20" tom and upright bass - better than ever - tight, sweet, magnifico).

I never would have thought I would cross the 15" woofer from the LaScala's over at 80 Hz - would have thought "What a waste! " - absolutely eye-opening.