Professor Thump Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Picture Reference: Scott Gahimer http://forum.m1911.org/showthread.php?t=62342 I think I have a chance to purchase a Nam era 1911 for a good price. I don't have any of the specifics yet but it is a Gov't issued piece. The owner carried it during the Nam War but doesn't want to keep it due to the bad memories. He said it doesn't shoot well compared to his Gold Cup which he is also selling. It will be interesting to see how original the pistol is. Evidently a lot of them were reworked from WWII. I will keep you posted. How are these to carry compared to an XD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 No other pistol feels as nice in my hand as the 1911...I prefer the flat main spring housing but that's me...I have had both and wouldn't feel slighted by having the arched MSH...the standard hammer might cause a bit of bite (it does for me)...I also prefer the full sized ones (sometimes called Government Model)...I would expect the value of an actual Government issued 1911 that was there to be quite high...the Gold Cup was Colt's target oriented model but not always considered the best...anything with the magic Colt on it holds it's value as well... Compared to the XD...I don't own one...I have held an XD and work with guys that carry them...if the XD is anything like a GLOCK (and I suspect it is similar at least in mission) it should be a rock solid and lightweight, combat accurate (if not target accurate...which can be overrated)...well made pistol... Things to consider for the 1911...how worn is it, do you wish to carry it...does it work for you...I need to add some things to mine as I am a Southpaw (like the sometimes hated ambi thumb safety) but the stock 1911A1 is perfectly serviceable and has been since the early 1900s...they are flat...that is saying a LOT in my opinion...they really can tuck away whereas the GLOCK I mentioned earlier is a bit thicker...I would have a gunsmith you trust go over the whole pistol before purchase if possible (unless the price is right there and/or the seller doesn't allow it) to make it safe...you want ALL the safeties to be reliable and any superlightweight trigger pulls to be brought back near stock (I do anyway)...I would trust my life to one (and have) as have many others... 1911...accurate enough...reliable...flat...ergonomic...full steel pistols (I have never had an ally framed one) shoot .45ACP (as well as my Super .38) easy... Good Luck, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIGARBUM Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Don't know for sure, but if the picture you posted is of the actual gun in question. I don't think that was a government issue. When in Nam I never sas an issued Gold Cup, a lot of guys had them but were purchased by them. There a great gun, take the advise of the others, haave it checked by a GOOD gunsmith. Buy it, you'll like it, the only one better is the Les Baer, 1 1/2" groups at 50 yards, I love mine. CB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Prof---I love these gunthreads........many of the 1911s wer part swapped-customized-reworked. 1911s were at a premiun during Nam. You could not find a Gold cup anywhere. I remember becuase I wnated one and could not get one. What is he asking. Isold a Nam era 1911 parts gun.. mostly original for a grand a couple of years back. Whatever you do..try to get the Gold cup.. I assume it is a series 70. if you want a 1911- bang for the buck- go Kimber- look no further. Ihave had Les baers-Ed browns- the ultra high buck 1911s. I keep going back to the Kimber custom shop Gold combat II. I will take the Pepsi challenge with my Kimber against anything on the market.Off sandbags at 50 yds it is a solid 1" using some old lake city match ammo that I got a while back. I used to shoot in matches til my eyes went south. Your xd is a newfangled whiz bang bells and whistles techno marvel. A better tactical weapon by all practical measures. BUT... There is a magic in those 1911s as evidenced by their skyrocteking comeback. Disadvantage- magazine cap and saftey config. Advantage- manstopper to the max- extremely easy to hit the target.. if they fit your hand.. and a magical shooting expierence if you get it.. and warm up to this design.I can take my Kimber gold combat 2 with night sites and eat the x ring out of a target at 50 feet like clockwork. I own a bunch of handguns.... if i were shooting for cash.. i would grab my kimber 45 or my Colt trooper gen 1 357. Cigar bum knows his stuff. Consider his opinion as gold though we may differ on fine points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 I think the prof was mentioning the seller had a Nam era 1911 and a Colt Gold Cup for sale...let me add to the above...a Springfield Armory (the one in Illinois and no relation to theArmory of the last century) Mil-Spec or loaded...(I'm not talking about the Military copy)...well built and needs little if you like something closer to the 1911A1 style... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted August 8, 2009 Share Posted August 8, 2009 Everything in the Springfield product line is well made and reccomended. Both guns mentioned are very desirable and should be bought as a package deal. The Kimber custom shop guns have the accuracy guarantee as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnlw7 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Wilson Combat in Berryville,Ar. build as awesome selection of guns.A friend of mine bought one of their M4 carbines.it is rock solid.It shoots very tight.They also build some fine handguns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Yes they certainly do-Another excellent brand Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Silversport is correct... Both of these are for sale. I will probably have $500-600 in the 1911 Gov't Issued model after FFL and expenses. I suspect the price on these start at $900 and go up if they work. Matching numbers would double the value or more depending on the manufacturer...I suspect it is not a Singer model, but one can hope. It also comes with the holster. I can't remember if it is the green canvas or leather that was issued then. The owner says the GC shoots SO MUCH BETTER. Why would that be? Porting on barrel? Springs? I don't know. As I mentioned in my younger days I had shot a GC and couldn't get use to the recoil. Now that I am working with the XD I suspect that I may have an improved sense of my ability to shoot it. As far as the XD...It is a double stack mag so it is thick. With the sub compact clip/grip it has less of a hip extension when carrying. I don't think caliber ever matters much. If you have good shot placement .3 - .5" holes are going to work. Guns don't kill people, holes in their bodies do. booo... I wouldn't have an issue using my .243 on deer. I have had friends take Elk on this caliber. You just need to hit the vitals. I have to admit shooting with the short 10 clip is not comfortable. When I go to the long 16 clip accuracy is greatly improved. But at 10 feet, the typical distance of conflict, I will carry the short clip on the gun and have the 16 on the other side. As a backup on the leg would be the other option, but how often would I take the time to do that? I am excited at considering carrying a single stack though. I learned to shoot on my own with a single shot 20 gauge Winchester when I was 14 and a BB gun just wasn't enough fire power. It taught me to shoot like I only got one round. I don't forget that important concept. I think it helped me learn to aim. So hiding a single stack makes sense and 7 shot clips don't concern me too much. You only need one...but I will follow up with at least one if the situation ever occurs. I know....most fire fights end up with empty clips without the shooter even knowing they shot more than two rounds. Prof---I love these gunthreads........ Me too... I am on the INGUNOWNERS.com with the same name and also TheHighRoad.com. But it might be nice to talk Klipsch into a area here also. 1911s were at a premiun during Nam. You could not find a Gold cup anywhere. I remember becuase I wnated one and could not get one. What is he asking. Isold a Nam era 1911 parts gun.. mostly original for a grand a couple of years back. Whatever you do..try to get the Gold cup.. I assume it is a series 70. I don't think the GC is Nam era. I if you want a 1911- bang for the buck- go Kimber- look no further. Ihave had Les baers-Ed browns- the ultra high buck 1911s. I keep going back to the Kimber custom shop Gold combat II. I will take the Pepsi challenge with my Kimber against anything on the market.Off sandbags at 50 yds it is a solid 1" using some old lake city match ammo that I got a while back. I used to shoot in matches til my eyes went south. Your xd is a newfangled whiz bang bells and whistles techno marvel. A better tactical weapon by all practical measures. BUT... There is a magic in those 1911s as evidenced by their skyrocteking comeback. Disadvantage- magazine cap and saftey config. Advantage- manstopper to the max- extremely easy to hit the target.. if they fit your hand.. and a magical shooting expierence if you get it.. and warm up to this design.I can take my Kimber gold combat 2 with night sites and eat the x ring out of a target at 50 feet like clockwork. I own a bunch of handguns.... if i were shooting for cash.. i would grab my kimber 45 or my Colt trooper gen 1 357. Cigar bum knows his stuff. Consider his opinion as gold though we may differ on fine points. It looks like the 1911 is not as popular now that the new polimers have come out, but that is probably as much due to price. Machining all that metal can't be cheap. I don't know if I can afford the GC on top of the G issue 1911. I would love to shoot one again before I decide. I would have never considered a 1911 to be an accurate pistol. I am thinking the range of price would be $900 -1500 to buy. It is the shinny polished stainles or nickel. Thanks guys for your expert marksmanship on this topic. I will keep you posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 This Nam era can get a little confusing. 45s were extremely sought after by our servicemen during Nam. This spawned a flurry of activity where a good number of "parts guns" with non matching numbers and components were assembled by shooters, dealers. When I refered to nam era I was eluding to this practice. It would surprise if this gun had matching numbers. It would be worth a lot more than 500.00. Most were were WWII examples and like M1 carbines the parts were mixed as a rule. The Gold Cup is a factory custom shooter with target sights and some extras. the idea was to ship a match ready 45 out of the box.The gold cup should by all rights shoot better than the other gun as a rule- but sometimes the opposite is true. I havfe owned well in excess of a hundred 45s and sometimes he old beaters outshoot the match guns. 1911 vs polymer- slim profile- advantage 1911- magazine cap-advantage polymer double stack- accuracy potential- advantage 1911 Big issue- the 1911 -with rare exceptions is a single action pistol- which means that the hammer must be cocked manually or by the rearward motion of the slide on the first shot. Problem-many models of the 1911 guns are not safe to carry hammer down with a round in the chamber. They must be carried cocked and locked- hammer back -round in chamber- with the slide safety engaged- or hammer down on an empty chamber. The cocked and locked is intimidating to some people and it is a big time clothes snagger. things to consider- That is the one reason I opt for the HK USP variant one which can be carried in DA mode with the hammer down and a round in the chamber or in cocked and locked mode. There were some changes between the series 70 and series 80 1911 which made them safer witha round in the chamber. I still dont like carrying any 1911- particulary the older ones- hammer down- round in the chamber. This is absolutely a non issue with the newer polymer guns unless the triger is pulled. The 1911 is making/has made a huge comeback. just look at all of the different new brands/models. Kimber has like 50 or 60 different models out. Smith and Wesson is making 1911s The 7 round capacity is offset by the slim profile and the huge chunk of lead in the 45 round- a devistating man stopper- I am seroiusly thinking about going back to a 45 for that very reason- one of the new HK compact models. There are some really BA 45 rounds on the market... if you can find them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Professor...5-600 is not bad for a shooter if it is safe AND it has provenance...the Gold Cup may have tighter tolerances and I have heard that the Gold Cups of a certain era were not much better than the standard Colt Government Model... Kimber should get most of the credit for bringing back the 1911 type pistols...and they stole the market that should have been owned by Colt by making a fine 1911 type pistol with the added extras that people thought they wanted...some worth it some not...I have one and I like mine... 1911s require more work from the manufacturer as they don't seem to be able to just make parts that fit ANY pistol of a particular brand, model, etc...when I attended SiGs armorer class, we learned that within a style and model (barring running changes on some parts) all parts fit in all guns....i.e. P226 parts fit in all P226s (that has changed a bit as I am unsure if all parts fit any P226 between folded steel slides and milled slide models)...with the 1911 it is different and you see more hand fitting to mate the parts together...get a good one with any hiccups worked out and they are magic...surprised we haven't had DeanG on here...he likes 'em and is a fan as well I believe... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 as long as that Nam era pistol hasn't been shot to death or worked on by an unknown 'gunsmith' you should be good to go...the Military smiths would have made it servicable and reliable... http://forums.1911forum.com/ http://forum.m1911.org/Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winchester21 Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Also keep in mind hat the 1911 is maybe the most-reworkable gun in existance. Even if it has been shot to pieces- new barrels are everywhere- lots od bushing and spring options-lowers can be reworked. Just a matter of weighing purchase price vs parts/installation. A 45 does not have to be extremely tight to shoot well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Wow... Now I know how you feel when we give out info on speakers. You guys are a big help and a wealth of info on 1811's. I am a pretty good outdoorsman but pistols have been my weekness in the knowledge department but current conditions are motivating me to change my knowledge base. (There is only so much info that I can store in my pretty little nogin before it dribbles out the other side - with one exception s*x) Paul Klipsch once said he has a photographic mind...they just forgot to load the film. Well my mind is more like a porn.......oh nevermind... Getting back on track... Let me tell you it is a great day in America! They take it away and give back a little and we are grateful. I just got back from Wally's World near Indy and what did I find? 5 boxes of Winchester 9 mm SJH. for $15. SOLD...So other than having bullets to load, I have primers, powder, a little brass and a lot of .22, 38, 243 cal and 9mm. I am in the clear on being able to shoot but I was concerned for a while with the shortage. It looks like it may be getting better but we haven't had any riots yet. I left them 6 boxes of 40 cal S&W (100 count) and a box of 44 cal S&W. I am feeling so stocked up that I might sell some of the Blazer 9mm 115 gr in Al case. I paid $14 plus SH from Natchez, so I may not be able to recover my money, but I would rather shoot brass rounds for reloading purposes. Either way I am not worried about it. Now I guess I need to consider 45 cal materials to load now. Not gonna buy 45's at the prices out there for non standard ammo. So the other good news is that Guns and Ammo had a special magazine on 45 cal 1911's...All the models. Cool. I gotta tell you. I was a lot more excited to find these deals than my wife was. But you have heard that story before... This Nam era can get a little confusing. 45s were extremely sought after by our servicemen during Nam. This spawned a flurry of activity where a good number of "parts guns" with non matching numbers and components were assembled by shooters, dealers. When I refered to nam era I was eluding to this practice. It would surprise if this gun had matching numbers. It would be worth a lot more than 500.00. Most were were WWII examples and like M1 carbines the parts were mixed as a rule. The Gold Cup is a factory custom shooter with target sights and some extras. the idea was to ship a match ready 45 out of the box.The gold cup should by all rights shoot better than the other gun as a rule- but sometimes the opposite is true. I havfe owned well in excess of a hundred 45s and sometimes he old beaters outshoot the match guns. Wow...100 45's...you do like them...Maybe we need to negotiate a speaker for arms deal here. I need to make some room in my theater area. It is starting to look like a modern day Colter's living room. Sorry no Heritage though. This guy selling carried the 1911 and he complains that it doesn't shot well compared to his GC. I got to say that unless he prices the GC right I would rather look for a Kimber Crimson Carry II. I could probably get that for the same amount of money. What about Para's? Are these like speakers? You get what you pay for? 1911 vs polymer- slim profile- advantage 1911- magazine cap-advantage polymer double stack- accuracy potential- advantage 1911 Big issue- the 1911 -with rare exceptions is a single action pistol- which means that the hammer must be cocked manually or by the rearward motion of the slide on the first shot. Problem-many models of the 1911 guns are not safe to carry hammer down with a round in the chamber. They must be carried cocked and locked- hammer back -round in chamber- with the slide safety engaged- or hammer down on an empty chamber. The cocked and locked is intimidating to some people and it is a big time clothes snagger. things to consider- That is the one reason I opt for the HK USP variant one which can be carried in DA mode with the hammer down and a round in the chamber or in cocked and locked mode. There were some changes between the series 70 and series 80 1911 which made them safer witha round in the chamber. I still dont like carrying any 1911- particulary the older ones- hammer down- round in the chamber. This is absolutely a non issue with the newer polymer guns unless the triger is pulled. Good points on advantages... The cocking issue concerns me on the Gvt issue. Racking the action is an advantage for "warning call" but speed is a big liability. I would rather fire two warning shots to the head than be overly cautious and dead or injured. (Most anti's wont read down this far to lock this thread...we will know if I am wrong and have to soon edit) I have to think long and hard about this problem...This leads me to believe that I will need to rework or buy a different carry piece... That must be what the current owner did. He also doesnt want the thing around because he feels like he is in Thailand again. My experience there must have been different. But it was 40 years later... Now the 70 and 80 series that you are referring to is a Colt Gov't Issue? or a Kimber? Sorry... *** (Edit with comment)*** I realize now that you were referring to the Gold Cup Colt 1911*** The single pull is probably why I couldn't shoot the G Cup. Now that I know how to hold may hands this may be a non issue. The 1911 is making/has made a huge comeback. just look at all of the different new brands/models. Kimber has like 50 or 60 different models out. Smith and Wesson is making 1911s The 7 round capacity is offset by the slim profile and the huge chunk of lead in the 45 round- a devistating man stopper- I am seroiusly thinking about going back to a 45 for that very reason- one of the new HK compact models. There are some really BA 45 rounds on the market... if you can find them. Exciting stuff... I like the thin grip cannons... I plan on reloading so BA 45 rounds shouldn't be a problem. As far as carrying holsters, I need to try under arm, kidney and fanny pack options. I am a little concerned with the sharp grip tang pinching my side. Does the gun ever bite back also? I am assuming that is what the tang is for...Under arm holster is best but you can't do this in the summer heat. Maybe I shouldn't have lost that Beer Belly! Here is a picture of my current XD 9 sub compared to one of the Kimber CDP Pros... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 as long as that Nam era pistol hasn't been shot to death or worked on by an unknown 'gunsmith' you should be good to go...the Military smiths would have made it servicable and reliable... http://forums.1911forum.com/ http://forum.m1911.org/Bill Nice site...Thanks Bill... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Professor...5-600 is not bad for a shooter if it is safe AND it has provenance...the Gold Cup may have tighter tolerances and I have heard that the Gold Cups of a certain era were not much better than the standard Colt Government Model... Kimber should get most of the credit for bringing back the 1911 type pistols...and they stole the market that should have been owned by Colt by making a fine 1911 type pistol with the added extras that people thought they wanted...some worth it some not...I have one and I like mine... 1911s require more work from the manufacturer as they don't seem to be able to just make parts that fit ANY pistol of a particular brand, model, etc...when I attended SiGs armorer class, we learned that within a style and model (barring running changes on some parts) all parts fit in all guns....i.e. P226 parts fit in all P226s (that has changed a bit as I am unsure if all parts fit any P226 between folded steel slides and milled slide models)...with the 1911 it is different and you see more hand fitting to mate the parts together...get a good one with any hiccups worked out and they are magic...surprised we haven't had DeanG on here...he likes 'em and is a fan as well I believe... Bill I saw where you could convert to 22 caliber! I may want to do that for squirrel hunting in Northern Michigan this fall... Lots of bushy tails running around when bow hunting is not prime. Have you guys tried this? Or maybe a 380 or 9mm? I can imagine I will want to hunt with a 45. Unless I shoot the branches under them to knock them out... At this point I will be lucky to hit the tree trunk....LOL!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CIGARBUM Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 Boy, lots of good reading here. About value, just got done looking at my Blue Book of Gun Values, the values are all over the place, basically depends on condition, rarity. It has been my opinion and experience that you can spend a lot more money trying to get an old military 45 up to good shooting condition, better off just purchasing a good quality custom gun, been lots of good names mentioned. Again I like the Les Bare, the frame is slightly thinner and fit my hand better than the rest, and I've had them all. It feels good and I shoot it well. Let me qualify that I used to. As you get older, I have developed Diabetes, lost a lot of feeling in my hands, my vision has also suffered greatly, not to mention the arthritis in my hands, trigger pull has gone to hell. While still better than most, not nearly what it used to be. I love single action 45's, don't really care the new modern stuff. I am very comfortable carrying mine lock and cocked. The guys have given you a lot of good information, before you buy, shoot the crap out of them before you decide, when the gun feels like it's part of your hand and your comfortable it it, buy it. And lastly, ALWAYS BE SAFE, AT HOME, AT THE RANGE, AND IN THE FIELD. CigarBum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Professor Thump Posted August 9, 2009 Author Share Posted August 9, 2009 Great advice CigarBum! Thinking I may get in cheap with a 1911 and also like it for carrying is probably not the case the more I learn. I like my XD9sc and shoot it well with the large grip. My eyesight makes it more of a challenge now than it did when I was 20. But I am smarter now, I hope. Thank goodness the hands are still there. Maybe I am making too much out of this at 50 Years. Do I have enough ammo to last another 20-30 years? Probably not. So with 2 kids in college buying a $2-3000 gun is out of the question. If I shoot it and can't live with it I may still make money. I just read some 1911 forums on conversions. That is another 3-400 clams to buy that. I might as well buy a mosquito for that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 please tell me you bought that blue'd Colt (the Nam one, right???) on the first post... ooops...I see where you borrowed the pic...heart palpitation...beauty... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SilverSport Posted August 9, 2009 Share Posted August 9, 2009 unless you feel the need for something like that...for .22 go Ruger or Browning...even Walther but my first choice would be a Ruger...relatively inexpensive and FUN to shoot...talk about something cheap you and your son could do...all day long and twice on Sunday, right??? http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FASubType?type=Pistol&subtype=Rimfire%20AutoloadingGood luck whatever your choice... Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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