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Tone Control


kevco
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I got your point, you just used a bad example. As you climb up the ladder of more expensive gear you will find less and less pre-amps with tone controls (McIntosh excepted). Some 17,000 buck pre-amps have none. So yes, I think a 150 dollar cable is a better deal than buying a pre-amp with tone controls (buying a low cost/quality pre-amp) .

Thanx, Russ

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1. Who could ever have need for more than 25 watts?!?

2. While the system as a whole sounds wonderful, I am suddenly feeling the need for some tone control. The obvious fix would be a graphic equalizer, but I'm unsure where to place one in my setup as there is no tape monitor loop. Placing it between my source ie: phono pre, cd player or Ipod would have me switching wires endlessly, while placing it between the linestage and amp seems inheritantly wrong.

3. I also worry that an EQ will add coloration to my all tube signal. I wish, simply, that my preamp had a bass and treble knob, but I am not prepared to drop many hundreds of dollars (if not thousands!) on a new linestage. Any and all ideas would be welcomed. I love these speakers!

1. People who believe that lower sensitivity = lower distortion when in reality quite the opposite is true.

2. You won't be able to insert the EQ between the phono input and the pickup. The other high level sources you could probably get away with doing that, albeit with required cable changes.

3. By changing the EQ you are in fact changing the coloration (ie: smoothness/flatness of frequency response), that's the whole point.

The biggest issue I have with EQ devices is the additional distortion and noise the add/enhance. But at least you're on the right track as to what a, EQ is for ~ to change the coloration of the speakers, not to correct for room acoustical deficiencies. Many of the EQ products have their own bypass switch if inserted inline with the source.

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1. Who could ever have need for more than 25 watts?!?

2. While the system as a whole sounds wonderful, I am suddenly feeling the need for some tone control. The obvious fix would be a graphic equalizer, but I'm unsure where to place one in my setup as there is no tape monitor loop. Placing it between my source ie: phono pre, cd player or Ipod would have me switching wires endlessly, while placing it between the linestage and amp seems inheritantly wrong.

3. I also worry that an EQ will add coloration to my all tube signal. I wish, simply, that my preamp had a bass and treble knob, but I am not prepared to drop many hundreds of dollars (if not thousands!) on a new linestage. Any and all ideas would be welcomed. I love these speakers!

Uhhh...Thanks for summing up my quest for world conquest....Have I somehow bored you, Artto? Is it time to put this thread to bed? I see that you are sympatheitic to my plight, yet I now feel like a scolded school boy who has folded his test paper into a lovely airplane...I'm picking up a used high quality EQ in a couple days from a friend, we'll see how it goes. I'm also planning on using my Fisher 400's preamp stage as a temporary sub for my linestage just for sh*ts and giggles to see how it all sounds with exactly what I want, IE: a bass and treble knob. 99db. speakers have a known ability to expose low quality components, and difficult masters. Have they exposed me as a guy who just wants his system to sound as excellent as he can afford? Hmmm.

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Not only tone control,


Imagine a device that can change frequency response only at LEVELS where a change is needed,
Some examples:

* increase bass amplitude but only if the bass is below a certain threshold,
Gradually leaving it alone and untouched when levels pick up. (SOLVES the problem of missing low level low frequency bass
while high dynamic bass does exist and kicks, but you miss that ambient rumble that follows a kick)
* Reduce some treble but only if it’s very loud like -6 or -3 db and above (helps reduce sibilance)
* improve ambience reflections at the 300-500 Hz range but don’t touch the music.


Imagine the same device can notch filter certain frequencies such as a bothering room node
at 82 Hz, or remove anything below 28 Hz to keep your khorns safe and linear, or remove 60 Hz hum from an old recording.

Imagine this device can level the sound volume for easy nighttime low volume listening,
while retaining dynamic feel,
yet not lose a note, great for dynamic classical music at low volume.

Imagine you have a poor compressed recording, or
you just don't have klipsch speakers, (you have new cabbage style compressing speakers :-) )
and yet you can still bring back some of that lost dynamic range using the expander function.

Suppose you cobbled up a loudspeaker from parts you had lying around with zero box design and just a cap for the tweet,
Sounds horrible doesn't it,
Imagine you could automatically EQ this contraption and get acceptable sound out it using this
devices automatic correction function with the measuring mike.

Imagine you could feed this device with pure digital stream directly from your player or pc,
to avoid any conversion losses.
everything would happen in the digital processing realm without adding analog noise and distortion
(albeit some of the software does function very similar to analog circuitry so I’ll give it a 9 out of 10).

If you want to add your own sugar and spice to your music, there are 30 channels of digital graphic EQ.
and 10 channels that can be (each one ) either a notch filter, or a parametric EQ, any bandwidth on any frequency,
any control +-15db but you can overlap, so if you really want that +30db at 40 Hz (why?), you can!, and
no distortions as long as you get the levels right.
and if you make a mistake and overload, there is a softlimiter to keep you safe.


If all you want is a very good DAC. then that’s all it can be.
It’s also a very good A to D converter, I use SPDIF input to my pc to convert analog tapes to digital
instead of using the lower quality pc card.
The output is also digital, so you can use an other DAC(why?) or continue the chain to a digital crossover.

Such a device does exist, it’s the Behringer DEQ2496.
took quit while to learn how to use it, and am still learning.

To keep signal purity, I feed it from my PC (or cd player), with tosslink (digital optical cable)
its analog output is attenuated by an ALPS Pot and goes into the Tube power amp,
or when I use my other pro solid state amp, then use its on board level control.
this is sometimes a called passive preamp.

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Not only tone control,


Imagine a device that can change frequency response only at LEVELS where a change is needed,
Some examples:

* increase bass amplitude but only if the bass is below a certain threshold,
Gradually leaving it alone and untouched when levels pick up. (SOLVES the problem of missing low level low frequency bass
while high dynamic bass does exist and kicks, but you miss that ambient rumble that follows a kick)
* Reduce some treble but only if it’s very loud like -6 or -3 db and above (helps reduce sibilance)
* improve ambience reflections at the 300-500 Hz range but don’t touch the music.


Imagine the same device can notch filter certain frequencies such as a bothering room node
at 82 Hz, or remove anything below 28 Hz to keep your khorns safe and linear, or remove 60 Hz hum from an old recording.

Imagine this device can level the sound volume for easy nighttime low volume listening,
while retaining dynamic feel,
yet not lose a note, great for dynamic classical music at low volume.

Imagine you have a poor compressed recording, or
you just don't have klipsch speakers, (you have new cabbage style compressing speakers :-) )
and yet you can still bring back some of that lost dynamic range using the expander function.

Suppose you cobbled up a loudspeaker from parts you had lying around with zero box design and just a cap for the tweet,
Sounds horrible doesn't it,
Imagine you could automatically EQ this contraption and get acceptable sound out it using this
devices automatic correction function with the measuring mike.

Imagine you could feed this device with pure digital stream directly from your player or pc,
to avoid any conversion losses.
everything would happen in the digital processing realm without adding analog noise and distortion
(albeit some of the software does function very similar to analog circuitry so I’ll give it a 9 out of 10).

If you want to add your own sugar and spice to your music, there are 30 channels of digital graphic EQ.
and 10 channels that can be (each one ) either a notch filter, or a parametric EQ, any bandwidth on any frequency,
any control +-15db but you can overlap, so if you really want that +30db at 40 Hz (why?), you can!, and
no distortions as long as you get the levels right.
and if you make a mistake and overload, there is a softlimiter to keep you safe.


If all you want is a very good DAC. then that’s all it can be.
It’s also a very good A to D converter, I use SPDIF input to my pc to convert analog tapes to digital
instead of using the lower quality pc card.
The output is also digital, so you can use an other DAC(why?) or continue the chain to a digital crossover.

Such a device does exist, it’s the Behringer DEQ2496.
took quit while to learn how to use it, and am still learning.

To keep signal purity, I feed it from my PC (or cd player), with tosslink (digital optical cable)
its analog output is attenuated by an ALPS Pot and goes into the Tube power amp,
or when I use my other pro solid state amp, then use its on board level control.
this is sometimes a called passive preamp.

I've tried to get a good look at the back panel of this unit, and have not yet been able to find a photo with enough detail to show it's connectibilty options. Is toslink the only input available for home audio users? Would this unit become in essence the only preamp in the system? I will investigate it further, as this is a serious jump in technology for a home anologue user like me. Seems to have an amazing amount of features though.

*I apologise as my tone was not pleasant, I guess my reply didn't sound the way I meant it to. I have rewritten my post. 6L6GC, your account of the Behringer is amazing in it's detail, and you have obviously learned a great deal about it.

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I thought I posted an answer last night yet I dont see it in this thread so hope its not double or im in trouble....

You can easily connect it to RCA using XLR to RCA cables, they aren't expensive, I'm running vintage tube gear this way.

I also used to use the RCA coax digital signal out from my CD player and computer to the AES XLR digital input and it worked great although its not entirely compatible with AES AFAIK.

Now Im using the SPDIF digital toslink (optical). The analog input also works great with any analog source,but it doesn't make sense to convert a digital source to analog and then back again for processing and then to analog once again if you can avoid it,but if you must, the results are far superior to analog EQ or tone controls.

I would try to avoid an active preamp if possible, and only use passive attenuators for volume limiting, any active preamp even the best contains active electronics that add some degree of noise and distortion, so having the Behringer act as DAC directly into the power stage is a good option to to limit extra stages

There is a possibility to have a passive tone control, but the CD out wont have anought voltage for it, plus the circuit has capacitors.

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