Bi-Amping K-Horns

[AltmanEars]

Coytee absolutely right on --- There is a clarity and immediacy of sound you would get from the active approach that you wont get even with a very expensive amp.

In virtually all my tests the active crossovers were designed by the speaker designer. This begs the request that Klipsch design a few active crossover for the heritage line.

Someone else mentioned or assumed that the speaker is the most important factor dwarfing all other concerns and though this makes perfect sense I have not found it to be true. The case in point was when a few freinds wired a Linn Kan actively with two naim 250's and a custom made naim active crossover. This was much more fun to listen too than the Wilson speakers we used as a "highend" benchmark. The Wilson WATT/Puppy was driven with a monster Krell amp. Even though there ware several hifi things the Watt's did a bit better, the biamped KAN communicated more music... Odd but true.

Fast forward --- today the active crossovers are way better than what I was using and inexpensive solid state amps are way cheaper and better than they were a decade ago...

[AltmanEars]

Chris, the Westlake experience was about 18 months ago so it might not pass your recent experience test but I thought it was more relavent since I consider the Westlake a good horn speaker like the Klispch --- only a bit better and obviously 10-20X more expensive.

The reason why I mentioned the other older speakers is that the conditions were more controlled and there was a listening panel.

I truly appreciate your comments regarding --- "the speaker is 10x more important" I've not found that to be the case --- for example in practice passive MG20.1 are OK but active MG20.1 are a whole different speaker. I'm only guessing here but I'm beginning to think the enthusiasm many have over Jub's is that they are active. Its infinitely easier to get a two way active to sound better than a three way passive aka Khorn.

All that said --- I'm sure you are in the majority opinion and much of this discussion assumes one can hear and knows how to tailor a crossover to a room/speaker --- Those are big assumptions --- failing that you are always better off passive.

BTW Did you read that as I'm saying you cant hear ??? Don't please Don't.

[Islander]

In virtually all my tests the active crossovers were designed by the speaker designer. This begs the request that Klipsch design a few active crossover for the heritage line.

Actually, Klipsch (in the person of the speaker designer/engineer Roy Delgado) took a high-quality pro-grade processor/crossover (the E-V Dx38) and used it in the development of the Jubilee and JubScala. The Dx and the speakers were tested and optimized together, and the results speak for themselves. E-V has proven expertise in this field and it would be hard for any speaker company (maybe Linn?) to come up with a better or more effective unit, at an equally affordable price.

[Coytee]

much of this discussion assumes one can hear and knows how to tailor a crossover to a room/speaker

Honest question coming up...

If someone buys (insert any speaker) and it's setup with a passive crossover, that design (engineered at the factory) will be a "set it and forget it" kind of thing, right? I say that since there really is no tweeking to the passive and any fine tuning might be done to the room.

Now...if this same person instead, buys the SAME speaker however, it's now setup with an active...AGAIN, with the active paramaters engineered at the factory, are we not starting out both situations in essentially the same place... a situation where you have the speaker and a fully engineered crossover system that you can in essence, take home and plug/play.

I'm not seeing how the active, with paramaters provided by the factory/chamber should be any different philosophically than the same speaker provided with a passive.

They both have the "same" starting point (plug/play) do they not?

I don't know diddly about how to creatively program my active. I can plug numbers in that are provided to me by Klipsch. I'd contend that doing that or building my own passive would get me to essentially the same place.

Am I misunderstanding something?

[Dylanl]

OK guys I can try this set up on a pair of Khorns or 2 way KG 5.5 2 ways. Which would you guys try 1st? I also need a little help with how to hook the crown up. If I have pictures of the back could you Pros help me.

THX

[Coytee]

Easy!!! I'd try first, that which you are currently using!

Post some pictures. Don't know if a goob like me could help you at all but you have to start somewhere (pics)

What are you hooking the Crown to? I think we covered earlier that it's XLR? Is your preamp XLR? How about your amps?

If not, you might need some RCA/XLR adapters as a starting point.

What will take me out of range of helping you is where to break into your passives. As I recall, the Khorn might have the passive split into two sections, one on top and one in the bass section?

If you biamp the Khorn with intent of going directly to the woofer and then directly to the passive for the HF section, you will need to get around this passive part that's attached to the woofer (where ever it's located) and wire your woofer directly to the LF amp.

Same logic holds if you use the KG's. I've never seen those so I know zippo about them, but the logic is the same.

Where you would tie into the HF section would be interesting

[DanO55]

So as I understand this thread, unless you have an active crossover with the ability to delay the seperate signals for a proper match at the arrival point (primary seating area) time wise, bi-amping may not be worth the effort. So lets say you have a set of Marantz model 3 tube crossovers, or Heathkit X0-1s, and the necessary seperate amps (tube or solidstate), would you bi-amp anyhow? Something to ponder!

[Coytee]

Dan, I'm no expert on any of this technical stuff... so with that said, I'd contend that in general, biamping might (specifically chose that word) in general be one improvement as you can then split up amps.

I personally like the idea of solid state on the bottom end and though currently also use solid state for the HF horn as well, I had very nice results when I put a 300B SET amp on top. (would have kept it but simply wanted more power than the 300B gave me)

I'd then wonder if the next level of biamping is when you can align the signals.

It's not without some challanges and perhaps some frustrations but I'd suggest that if one can get over those hurdles there is indeed, a reward on the other side.

[DanO55]

I am bi-amping (all tube) a set of Altec Valencias and would never go back to passive. I have what I need to go full tube with my LaScala also, so what the heck, give er a try. Will have to modify the Heathkits a tad since the highest split is at 3.5k. Film at eleven.

[Werner Enge]

We did much on bi-amping the K-horns , especially the 60th Anniversary Klipschorn .

Our Customers notice a higher Quality at all when our job was well done .

[Werner Enge]

And here´s another one , same electronics , but powering the Klipsch La Scala II .

See add pic :

[Werner Enge]

Here´s one with a Sovereign Signature Series Preamplifier and 2 of the Sovereign Power Amplifiers , wired by Viablue Cables .

see add pic :

[Don Richard]

PWK tried bi-amping in 1972, and at least with the equipment he tried then, said it provided no audible improvement to the K-horn. He also said that several pairs of "golden ears" he had audition it could hear no improvement, including a guy who could reliably distinguish between the sound of a Marantz 9 and a McIntosh 275, two of the most luscious tube power amps of all time (they used McIntosh 275s at Wally Heider recording studio in San Francisco well into the late 70s, preferring them to anything solid state they could find). I can't access my Dope from Hope set right now, but I'm pretty sure the biamping missive was in 1972. It figures that the K-horn might show less audible improvement than many other speakers when biamped, because amplifiers have an easy time with K-horns.

Back then the active xovers that were available were analog designs. I do not know the specific one(s) that were tried but they were either made with discrete components or some of the first op-amp ICs made. All were noisy and used very large amounts of n-feedback in the design of their filters. I had such a xover (Pioneer) on a sound reinforcement rig I was operating at that time. Lots of issues with that.

The digital loudspeaker processors of today are an entirely different animal. The xover filters are usually FIR filters that do not rely on phase shifting to create a filter function. They also have available EQs, delays, different slope rates, and limiters that help with signal alignment and driver protection.

IMO, the Khorn needs such an active xover irrespective of its efficiency. It's the difference in the travel time caused by the misaligned drivers that can be corrected with delays that is of great benefit. The steeper slopes and PEQ don't hurt either. Without these features polyamplification would provide much less of an improvement with Khorns.

[Rudy81]

I thought about a sub as well, but does a sub work well with k-horns? Also I am not real sure about how I can hook one up in my system.

Jay

Jay: I integrate my SVS with my Khorns below 45hz. I have found that above 45hz, the SVS cannot keep up with the Khorns and does not produce clean, tight bass. My Integra DHC 9.9 does the integrating. I will suggest that before you go to all this effort, make sure you are getting the bass the Khorns are capable of. In my case, the Audyssey EQ system REDUCES most of the bass frequencies due to how much bass is perceived at the listening position when equalizing the room for a flat frequency response.

As you know a near perfect seal is required to get the most from the bass bin. Double check that. I used to think I had my bins sealed....until one day I took the top hat off and put a flashlight in the very corner and from the sides of the bin I could see just what a poor job of sealing the bin I had done. Also, if you can, run an RTA program so you can plot the actual frequency response in your room. Finally being able to do that has really helped me dial in my room. All you need is a laptop or pc with a duplex capable audio card and a decent microphone. For low frequencies, you can even get away with a basic Rat Shack meter as a mic. In running my RTA program, I can plot and 'see' just how much bass the Khorns are putting out. That, for me, was verification that the Audyssey EQ was correct.

I'm not sure what you are going to get by bi-amping your Khorns with a passive network. Of course, playing with all this is half the fun.

[Dylanl]

Ok here is the picture of the back

[Dylanl]

Here is the manual. I tried to hook it up tonight and the signal seems to be not strong enough. I think the gain is a mismatch from the preamp.

Crown Crossover1.pdf

[Dylanl]

For all those interested in Bi-amping read this article it's great

http://www.sound.westhost.com/bi-amp.htm

Now I just need to figure out how to get these units working.

[Coytee]

Ok here is the picture of the back

Hmm... interesting picture. I'm going to say something and it's said with a smile so don't let my fumbling fingers screw up my intent.

Do you remember years ago, a commercial for cigaretts. I think it was for Virginia Slims? The tagline for the commercial is "you've come a long way baby"

Just looking at your picture brings that thought to me. I'm sure it does what it does nicely. I'd have to wonder if technology hasn't passed it up though.

I don't know much about the gain matching and output volts & input sensativities so I certainly can't help there.

I will however, mention again, just so I know it's been done... that you are MORE than welcome to try my Dx38 for a while. Hopefully not as long as I've let my dbx 5bx out (a year) but I'm not going to be using this anytime soon. As I'm looking at the picture of yours and then seeing the Dx, it's got me thinking of perhaps a 69 SS Chevelle verses a 2003 Ferrari. Both do some things well but the Ferrrari might do more.

I also have...drats, what's it called... a transformer amp. Ahh.. it's an Art Cleanbox. I think Rolls makes one as well. We are again getting into that impedence matching conversation (I think) but bottom line, it allowed me to hook my Peach (RCA outputs) to my Dx38 as it did the converstion from RCA to XLR. It also has an XLR to RCA path.

I don't know if you would/could use something like that in your system. If so, I've got one of those as well. They're not too expensive

Tell ya what... if the Steelers win, you "gotta" try the Dx and if the Bengals win, you don't have to.... [:^)]

(I wonder who he's rooting for now! [])

[Dylanl]

Yes, I would like to try it but I don't seem to understand what it will do that the Crown will not. If I can get this unit working I would like to do that 1st. From all the research I have done this vintage crossover has quite a following and is said to help make beautiful music.

So I will send you my address, how much do you think it will cost to ship? I could give you my UPS number.

Thanks, Brett

[Coytee]

Here's the scoop on the dx http://www.electrovoice.com/products/50.html

I'll admit that I don't know what your Crown will do although I suspect one big difference between the two is the Dx has a digitial section in it and I'd bet your Crown doesn't. (some don't like the digital section, so that may be good or bad)

Mind you...my comments here are regarding the use of your Khorns.

With the Khorns you have the long bass horn. As such, I think you (speaking generically, not "you") want to delay the HF section so you can "push back" the sound to meet the sound coming out of the bass horn.

The Dx will allow you to delay the HF section and match them up.

If instead, you use a speaker like a Cornwall where you have a bass radiator, I think the distance might not be an issue or, if it IS an issue it's reversed where the horns on top are longer than the bass driver.

Maybe others who know more details will chime in here... I understand that if you were to try something like the Dx on something other than your Khorns, you might not necessarily experience its full benefits.

I already have it sitting on a table at home, I'll bring it in to work, try to find a box and get to packing it.