RF 83 failed at producing very high trumpet recording.

[dajames]

I have recently assembled my first home theater system. I have a Denon 4310 AV receiver driving Klipsch RF 83s, All the other speakers are also Klipsch.

The very first CD I played on my Sony DVD was a Maynard Fergurson recording of Maria. Maynard reaches the stratosphere on this recording and I suspect that the recording mike may not have been capable of fully capturing the live spectrum.

Anyway, I turned the volumn up on my Denon 4310 and the FR-83 tweeter just could not produce the very high frequency sound. The speaker basically went blaaaaaaa.

I got in my car and drove to the closest high end Audio retailer and asked if they would let me listen to the DC track on one of their systems to see if the 'problem' was the CD recording, and not my RF-83s.

The system they used had $4.000.00 ea FOCAL towers with probably $15,000.00 in McIntosh CD, preamp and amp electronics. This rig reporduced the very high frequencies almost perfectly. ( Again, I suspect the Maria chart on the CD does not faithfly capture the actual very high trumpet performance.)

I told the salesman that if I gave my RF 83s a zero rating for their inability to reporduce the very high notes, then I would have to give their system a 7 with a question as to if the distortion that their system displayed was due to the quality of the CD....or....simply the inability of their system to reproduce the very high notes. (On the FOCALS you could still hear some distortion, however, the FOCALs were able to at least render most of the very high trumpet notes.)

Yes, I know, my electronics, Denon AVR 4310 is not the same quality as $15.000.00 worth of McIntosih electronics. However, I am greatly disapointed that dear old Maynard's screeching is out of my reach using my 'new' RF 83s.

This same dealer had an RF 82 which was fed by a sparate integrated amp which had a small tube in it's output stage. Yes, the RF 82s exhibited the same inability to reproduce the very high trumpet notes. The conclusion is that the tweeters on my RF 83 just cannot reporduce Maynard's screeching trumpet.

I played some Buddy Rich big band charts on my 'new system' and this charts seemed to sound A-OK.

The salesman at the high end Audio store said that he doubted, if I upgraded to the Cornwalls, that they could faithfully reproduce Maynards very high trumpet notes either. His opinion is that the Klipsch tweeters just cannnot reproduce this part of the audio spectrum.

I don't listen to Maynard very often, for his upper trumpet notes are just way too high for prolonged listenting, in my opinion. However, it is very disappointing to spend my limited budget on the RF 83s and then find out they simply cannot reporduce these very high notes. I guess they cannot produce the 1, 2nd and 3rd harmonics of lower frequencies.

[Zen Traveler]

...I have recently assembled my first home theater system. I have a Denon 4310 AV receiver driving Klipsch RF 83s, All the other speakers are also Klipsch.

Anyway, I turned the volumn up on my Denon 4310 and the FR-83 tweeter just could not produce the very high frequency sound. The speaker basically went blaaaaaaa.

That does not sound normal. Did you run your Audyssey eq?

[wuzzzer]

What are you using as a CD player and cables connecting it to your Denon? What setting is your Denon on as far as Stereo, Direct, etc.?

The new Reference speakers are rated at +-3dB up to 23kHz, highest of any Klipsch speaker I've ever seen.

[dajames]

I did run the Audssey function. I am very new to this Denon AVR 4310 and it was almost overwhelming. I need to rerun the Audssey funciton again. Audssey averaged 3 microphone locations to come up with the parameters it set. I noticed that one of the RF-83 was set to something like -12.8 db.

I have never owned an AV receiver as sophiscated as the new Denon 4310. The manual is like 130 pages. I tried to read it and some of the sentences are like reading the German philosophers...

[dajames]

I used a Sony 5-CD DVD player I purchased in 2006. I am using Monster XP speaker cables with banana plugs. (not soldered - screw on)

I was driving the FR-83s very hard in two channel mode. Something called Direct Stereo. Apparently in this setting, the Denon AVR does not do any signal processiong and just passes the signal to the amp section.

I have never owned any piece of electronics as sophisticated as the preamp section of this Denon AVR 4310. So, I have a lot to learn. However, the RF-82s in the dealer showroom exhibited the same imability to reporduce the Very High Trumpet notes. Please note the, the volume in the dealer showroom was lower than the volume setting I had on my Denon when I tried to play Maria.

[Zen Traveler]

Here is an excellent resource on Audyssey setup: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14456895#post14456895

And I think some of the key points are:

1) Use a tripod (don't set mic on something else) and run all of the positions allowed ( I think it's 8 on the Denon AVR-4310)

2) If you a are using a sub make sure to go back and change all of the speakers set large to small.

3) After setup try the various parameters (i.e., Audyssey, Flat, none)

Fwiw, if you didn't do 1 and/or 2 above that could really make a difference.

[Zen Traveler]

I used a Sony 5-CD DVD player I purchased in 2006. I am using Monster XP speaker cables with banana plugs. (not soldered - screw on)

I was driving the FR-83s very hard in two channel mode. Something called Direct Stereo. Apparently in this setting, the Denon AVR does not do any signal processiong and just passes the signal to the amp section.

I have never owned any piece of electronics as sophisticated as the preamp section of this Denon AVR 4310. So, I have a lot to learn. However, the RF-82s in the dealer showroom exhibited the same imability to reporduce the Very High Trumpet notes. Please note the, the volume in the dealer showroom was lower than the volume setting I had on my Denon when I tried to play Maria.

In Direct Stereo the Audyssey EQ can still be in effect. The Master Volume level could vary by alot depending on calibration in either your room, or the show room and where the gain/trim levels were set. Fwiw, I have never heard an upper end Klipsch speaker not do horns well.

[RockOn4Klipsch]

I would also question the Frequency response of the CD player in the chain. It may not reproduce frequencies above 15 kHz. May be something to look at.

was the CD player bitstreaming or doing the decoding internally? This may also be the issue as the DAC's in the CDP (if decoding internally) are incapable.

Another issue that it maybe is that YOU simply can't hear those frequencies, you should play the recording for your wife or girlfriend as women can typically hear higher frequencies that men can not.

[Richard Guba]

According to what I could find Maynard could play an octave plus a step above triple high c.

Triple high c is 4186 HZ and an octave above would be 8272 HZ. So the fundamental tones were less than 10,000 HZ.

The RF 83 should be able to play this tone easily.

My old Kossfire 110s could play my Maynard Ferguson albums. Something does not make sense.

[Invidiosulus]

Woops,

Looks like somebody already figured out the freqs on this one.

To add,

My HK computer speakers can play maria off of youtube ok.

Another Edit,

Maynards tone kind of sucks when he goes that high.

That could be the similar distortion you are hearing on different systems.

Some Jazz cymbals with brushes are going to have much higher frequency content than his playing although his overtones and harmonics may be getting up there somewhat.

[wuzzzer]

I used a Sony 5-CD DVD player I purchased in 2006.

Do you have the Sony hooked up with RCA cables or a digital connection?

[dajames]

I have the Sony DVD player, Model Number:DVP-NC85H (purchased in 2006), connected to the Denon 4310 using an HDMI cable. Since the 4310 only has one HDMI cable for a CD/DVD player, and my new Soney Blu Ray 360 deck is connected to that input via DVD, I connected the Sony DVD player to the HDP HDMI input, which is next to the DVD input.

[dajames]

I think my Denon 4310 has 9 Audyssey locations.!!! I only used 3. OMG!! I have to use all 9! Ok.

Also, I will use a tripod. I have a Gitzo Carbon Fiber tripod.

As I recall, the only speaker that were set to 'large' were the two front RF 83s. I beleive even the RF 62 surround speakrs were set to small.

OK..I will set all the speaker small. (Does this INCLUDE THE SUB ??)

The guy at the Hi End Audio store said I should feed both the Center Channel and the LFE signal to the subwoffer. Do you agree that my Klipsch DSW 15 subwoofer should receive the Center and LFE signals??? (I need to find out how to do all this stuff....the Denon 4310 manual is 112 pages.

Also, the guy at the Audio Store said, The cross over frequency for the Sub in the Denon should be 80 Hz and not 40 Hz. He also said the Denon has a volume control in the AVR that controls the volume of the subwoofer.

I have a lot to study and learn about the new Denon AVR 4310.

[LarryC]

According to what I could find Maynard could play an octave plus a step above triple high c.

Triple high c is 4186 HZ and an octave above would be 8272 HZ. So the fundamental tones were less than 10,000 HZ.

Although the thread has moved on, I'd like to suggest that I don't think the problem was ever a frequency limitation. A 4,100 Hz and especially an 8,200 Hz tone are up there in overtone territory, i.e., the tingle in triangles and cymbals. Those frequencies are well beyond the fundamentals of almost everything but extremely short organ pipes. In contrast, the soprano's "high C" fundamental is only about 1,000 Hz.

I listened on Youtube to excerpts of his "scream" tones from movies, and matched his highest note on a keyboard -- it seemed to be an "A" two octaves above the 440 Hz tuning "A", or around 1,760 Hz. Higher than I would have guessed, and certainly higher than a regular trumpet is supposed to play according to my orchestration book. Only the B flat Piccolo Trumpet is supposed to go nearly that high. His tone quality was extremely clear on Youtube, and I can see how you wanted it to play clearly.

Naturally, the overtones would have gone much higher than a 1,760 Hz fundamental.

[Zen Traveler]

I think my Denon 4310 has 9 Audyssey locations.!!! I only used 3. OMG!! I have to use all 9! Ok.

Also, I will use a tripod. I have a Gitzo Carbon Fiber tripod.

As I recall, the only speaker that were set to 'large' were the two front RF 83s. I beleive even the RF 62 surround speakrs were set to small.

OK..I will set all the speaker small. (Does this INCLUDE THE SUB ??)

The guy at the Hi End Audio store said I should feed both the Center Channel and the LFE signal to the subwoffer. Do you agree that my Klipsch DSW 15 subwoofer should receive the Center and LFE signals??? (I need to find out how to do all this stuff....the Denon 4310 manual is 112 pages.

Also, the guy at the Audio Store said, The cross over frequency for the Sub in the Denon should be 80 Hz and not 40 Hz. He also said the Denon has a volume control in the AVR that controls the volume of the subwoofer.

I have a lot to study and learn about the new Denon AVR 4310.

Definitely use a tripod and all 9 locations.

After running Audyssey go back and set the Rf-83s to Small and in the Bass Mgmt see what the crossover is (on my Denon 4806 there is an "Advanced setting). It may have your RF-83s at 40 Hz but I would go in and change it to 60 Hz). and the LFE setting (high pass filter) make sure it is at 120 Hz. Fwiw, I don't understand what the guy at the store is telling you but he may mean set your speakers to small. I can't imagine anything else.

If you want, after running post your trim levels here and lets see what they look like.

[Invidiosulus]

For other high trumpet music you may want to check out the Tastee Bros.

http://web.archive.org/web/20050506010646/www.tasteebros.com/sounds/Mycountr.mp2

[dajames]

Thank you for the link to the Audyssey setup information.

David

[dajames]

Again thank you for your help.

I am going to try and catch a Space-A hop to Germany today. I want to attend Oktoberfest. So, I may be out of country for awhile.

When I return back home, I run the Audssey function again. I was looking in my Denon manual and it says...Run at LEAST 6 locations. So, the 3 I did was not adequate

[Zen Traveler]

Oktoberfest im Munchen! Das war sehr gut. :-) Viel gluck.

[LarryC]

A Youtube "error" kept me from hearing the Tastee link, but these snippets of girl trumpeters cropped up at the side:

-- nicely arranged, if simple

-- expertly played IMO, with more style than most other trumpeters show in Haydn