Surge Protector/Power Supplies...What to get.

[liebherr954]

Hi guys I have a couple of questions regarding surge protectors/ un-interrupted power supplies.

I recently bought a new TV and I plan on replacing my receiver in the next couple of months so I want to protect my investment and I was wondering what the better route to go would be.

What are the advantages/disadvantages of either unit, I’m looking to spend about $125 at the most.

I hope that’s enough information to get so responses.

Thanks NK

[Islander]

Check out Tripp Lite. They make good surge protectors with built-in noise filters and they're not expensive. I'd recommend the Isobar Ultra models.

[Malcolm]

No need for a UPS with the possible exception of a front or rear projection set. The reason people buy a UPS in this case is so that the bulb can cool down normally. I am not entirely sold on the necessity of this. I have used rear projection equipment for years, lost power for various reasons, and never lost a bulb. One would think that it would be better to let the bulb cool down more slowly than to blow air on it to cool it down faster. This is essentially annealing, which is exactly what is done when glass is blown or cast to keep it from cracking as it cools down.

If you own a house, the best thing you can do is install a whole-house surge protective device at the service entrance. You need to make sure not only the power line is protected, but also telephone, cable, antenna down lead, and any other path by which a surge can enter the building are all protected. You also need to have a good ground and a short, low impedance connection between the surge protective device and the ground. This will take care of the most damaging types of surges (lightning, power line switching transients, etc.) There are also transients generated in the house. Most of them aren't really surges, rather noise. Those that are surges tend to be with the ability of power supplies in most equipment to withstand.

If you go with a plug-in unit, I will add my vote for Isobar Ultra. They have better surge protection technology than most, plus decent noise filters.

[Rockingout]

I snatced up an APC H15 for about $99 bucks a while back. I think it is a good unit for that price. I bought from Tiger direct.

[liebherr954]

Thanks for the help guys, I'm going to get a tripp lite model, its seems like a good deal.

Thanks again

[westom]

I have a couple of questions regarding surge protectors/ un-interrupted power supplies. ...

What are the advantages/disadvantages of either unit,

Did you read each manufacturer numeric spec? Which unit lists each type of electrical anomaly and protection from each anomaly - with numbers?

The un-interrupted power supplies does one thing - provide power when AC mains is lost. Anything else it claims in a sales brochure is near zero. Since sales brochures are for people who ignore numbers, that near zero function gets hyped as a complete solution.

If in doubt, post those manufacturer spec numbers here to then have an answer. That Tripplite does not claim to accomplish what another has posted.

[Groomlakearea51]

Did you read each manufacturer numeric spec? Which unit lists each type of electrical anomaly and protection from each anomaly - with numbers?

The un-interrupted power supplies does one thing - provide power when AC mains is lost. Anything else it claims in a sales brochure is near zero. Since sales brochures are for people who ignore numbers, that near zero function gets hyped as a complete solution.

If in doubt, post those manufacturer spec numbers here to then have an answer. That Tripplite does not claim to accomplish what another has posted.

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=BR1500LCD

These seem to work for me..... They provide the power and time necessary for a shutdown; and provide very good surge specs as in "0" (not "near zero"), and the stepped sine wave looks very good on a scope (better than the wall current....). Also they have a $150,000 replacement guarantee. I use these with my stereo equipment and the HT stuff scattered through the house. The scheme is from the wall to the APC units, then to the Furman M8Dx units (additional surge protection) which distribute to the amps, etc.

[westom]

These seem to work for me..... They provide the power and time necessary for a shutdown; and provide very good surge specs as in "0" (not "near zero"), and the stepped sine wave looks very good on a scope (better than the wall current....). Also they have a $150,000 replacement guarantee.

If the surge protection exists, then you posted the manufacturer number for each type of surge. You did not because APC makes no protection claims in its specs. How many joules? A few hundred joules will absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? That is not near zero? Of course it is. I just cited numbers routinely found in APC products - a few hundred joules. That is a near zero number.

The stepped sine wave means it is not 'cleaner' than AC mains. Of course, if the manufacturer had a 'cleaner' output, then numeric specs would include the THD numbers. It does not. What does this 120 V APC output - because a replacement battery costs almost as much as the entire unit? Two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to 270 volts between those square waves. And yes, that is also described in the specs as a sine wave. Square waves are nothing more than sums of sine waves. So they really did not lie.

GM is offering a 5 year and 100,000 miles warranty. Why? Because their products suck. Warranties are highest on the most inferior products - a lesson repeatedly found in any free market economy. Why does APC offer a big buck warranty? Because it is so chock full of exemptions as to never be honored. Only the most naïve would publically recommend a warranty without first reading its fine print exemptions.

APC products provide near zero surge protection. It contains the same protector circuit found in a power strip protector selling for $7 in the grocery store. But they are selling to people who only read the 'sales brochure' - never demand numbers. Or believe a warranty exists because the numbers on the box are so large. The APC is recommended without any numbers. It has near zero protection.

Anything that APC or Tripplite might accomplish in surge protection and noise reduction is already inside appliances. Furman is only a surge protector hyped with a different description. Another product that is recommended without any numbers - because it is only a surge protector.

How do those few hundred joules in an APC stop surges that are hundreds of thousands of volts. APC will not make that claim. Apparently you know better. Please explain how its few hundred joules stop typically destructive surges? How does it make that energy just disappear?

So that the rare and destructive surge does not overwhelm protection inside all appliances, the informed consumer spends about $1 per protected appliance for the solution that has been routine for over 100 years. One ‘whole house’ protector and no APC or Tripplite products are how telcos install effective protection … for over 100 years. One well-proven solution is manufactured by Cutler-Hammer and sells in Lowes for less than $50. Protection so that the destructive surge does not even enter the building – does not overwhelm protection that is already inside every appliance.

The big buck warranty proves protection? Please. A big buck warranty works on those who don't know - did not read the fine print.

[Groomlakearea51]

I guess you do not like UPS's or surge protectors. Not to get into an argument which would undoubtedly last forever.... I do read the fine print. I read the fine print on a number of different makes/ models, etc, and I did consult with APC before getting them (we also use them at the office), and went over their specific "fine print". I'm covered for the application for which I am using them. And the wall current in my location is not very good. Before the units - hum, interference, voltage fluctuating from 116 to 124 at all hours of the day and night. etc. After - dead silence and steady 118-119 volts on the Furman units. I do also have a whole house protector at the main breaker board. It works.. The house was inspected by competent, licensed electrical contractor before an addition made 2 years ago (required by Building & Zoning for permits to add rooms, etc on any structure built prior to 1990). All wiring, breakers, etc are correct, proper gauge, etc. The contractor was NOT the electrical contractor used by the general contractor for the construction, so there was no conflict of interest. When the addition was built, the original breaker box was changed, a second breaker box for the generator and the whole house surge unit was added at that time. We still get minor surges and browns that do not trigger the whole house unit (and when severe thunderstorms and tropical storms head this way we get the big ones... including the ones that blow the pole cans all over the place...). Thus the UPS, etc., are used. The primary use is always going to be to allow a shutdown, and to handle intermittent small level surges, etc. that tend to eventually cause problems with electronic equipment.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it! [H]

[westom]

We still get minor surges and browns that do not trigger the whole house unit

The 'whole house' protector does not 'trigger'. A 'whole house' protector means you never even know a surge existed. You don't know a surge even exists - nothing triggered - if the 'whole house' protector is doing its job.

No protector is for brownouts. A brownout is low voltage. Protectors ignore all but the highest voltages. For normal electronics operation, lights can dim to 40% intensity - a perfectly acceptable voltage. Voltages between 116 and 124 volts are perfectly acceptable - ideal - voltages. Neither APC nor Tripplite would do anything to improve those conditions.

Meanwhile, every homeowner should have one 'whole house' protector installed with the always necessary proper earthing. After all, protection inside appliances can be overwhelmed by the rare thousands of volts - without a 'whole house' protector.

The OP asked about protection for his TV. A strongly recommended solution from an electrical engineer. 'Whole house' protectors is what all facilities do when damage is not an option - ie munitions dumps. Companies that provide 'whole house' protectors have more responsible names - General Electric, Square D, Intermatic, Keison, Leviton, and Siemens are but a few. The Cutler-Hammer solution sells in Lowes for less than $50.

All TVs contain significant protection. Protection that can be overwhelmed by a rare (typically once even seven years) electrical anomaly. Either you let that transient into the building. Or that energy is harmlessly absorbed in earth - before entering. Informed homeowners install one 'whole house' protector - so that everything including the dishwasher, bathroom GFCIs, clock radio, and furnace are protected.

It’s not about liking anything. Numbers are required for hard facts. Plug-in solutions do not even claim to provide what homeowners need. Where are the numbers? Subjective claims such as a big buck warranty or "Surge Protection" in big letters provide no facts; mean near zero protection. What are the engineering numbers? Exactly why informed homeowners earth a 'whole house' protector.

Ignore the overwhelming majority who promote what salesmen told them to believe. Essential to TV protection is earthing - which is why one 'whole house' protector is so effective. And costs tens or 100 times less money.

[InVeNtOr]

here's my 2cents.

Furman Sound is by far the best one to buy for one simple reason, it will never break. it can take 1 billion direct lightning strikes and never falter. (exaggerating on the "billion"). every other "power conditioner" or "surge protector" has MOV's that "break" to not allow the extreme voltage through. Furman has MOV's on their set up but they engineered them differently.

so taking that knowledge, if you were to buy any other brand and actually get a lightning strike, you have to replace that surge protector. if you have a furman, you don't.

if money is an issue, (which in my head, if you spend $5000+ on your electronics, what's another $500 - 10%- on something at actually protects it) i would say the Furman PST-8D or M10-HT-PRO. the M10 is the EXACT same as the furman pst-10d but furman doesn't sell it anymore. they gave it to panamax (they are sister companys). furman still has the pst-10d in their discontinued category.

also, furman is the only company that publishes what their power conditioners actually remove and at what ranges.

i have the 20pfi and wouldn't have anything else.

[Groomlakearea51]

I will agree with westom that ideally, a quality "whole house" surge protector is great. But there is a monetary issue. Where I live, installation of anything that is between the power pole and the breaker box, requires a licensed electrical contractor. The estimate I got just for the whole house protector was over $1000. Labor, parts, FPL has to be present when the pole is disconnected from the meter, etc. etc. ad nauseam. $1000+ is a lot of money, so I waited until the room was built and the additional breaker box for the hurricane generator was added, etc. That way the majority of the costs were absorbed into that project. The battery systems total cost are approximately $1000, spread over the last five years, and I have only replaced the batteries on the first one. The replacement batteries were not that expensive and five years is not a bad life span. I probably will get longer life from the systems in the man cave because I completely turn the backup systems off if I am not in there and will not be for a day or so. Batteries are batteries, and the sealed lead acid types pretty much will last a very long time provided they are not subject to constant temperature/ humidity changes.

The other issue that I think was overlooked was "dirty" A/C. Most modern backup and very good surge systems also address that issue which for electrical components (other than normal appliances) can be an issue that contributes to either poor performance, noise, or both.

I think my explanation needed explaining.... The crux of the matter is that vintage stereo equipment (per one of the actual engineers who designed my stuff...) requires a constant voltage in order to operate properly. Small "surges", while not enough to trigger whole house breakers (or even most surge protectors) can and will eventually damage power transformers, etc. While modern stereo/HT/AVR stuff may be much better equipped to handle these issues, the older stuff was not. It was a technology issue. The concern for me is really making sure that I get a constant, stable, clean, 120 volts. For that reason, more so than eanything else is why I use the "batteries" and the Furmans. Since initiating that system several years ago, I no longer the issues which I discussed previously.

Case in point: Prior to the use of the isolated battery systems, my Klipschorns always seemed to have a slight "hiss" from the tweeters when no volume was present on the amps. It drove me crazy for many years. Different amps exhibited different levels of hiss, regardless of grounding, etc. It was simply always there. It ranged from very, very slight in Europe to audible in Florida. Except for one ocassion.... When I lived in West Virginia up in the hills outside Huntington while finishing college, there was no hiss. Being the bright young lad I was, I did some checking with the engineering department at school and was told that the A/C power supply around Huntington was very "clean". Maybe I was on the right track. Also noticed that the voltage was very stable, 118 volts, and almost never wavering. Once I put the first amp on the "battery", the hiss went away. You gotta' crank it up with no signal to begin to hear any hiss at all, and that level is way beyond the safe range to listen to anything without bleeding eardrums.

Florida has been a nightmare, and until the state cracked down on the utility company after the 2004/2005 hurricane disasters, voltage varied from 115 to 124 and would go up and down particularly in the evenings (peak useage) during the summer time frame. It's better now.... but still not up to standards that many others enjoy.

Thus, regardless of the argument for a single whole house vs other methods, the solution I implemented works; and works well. I have had numerous guests from the Forum at my residence, and all have remarked how quiet the "noise floor" is in the rooms using the bat system.

[westom]

I will agree with westom that ideally, a quality "whole house" surge protector is great. But there is a monetary issue. Where I live, installation of anything that is between the power pole and the breaker box, requires a licensed electrical contractor. The estimate I got just for the whole house protector was over $1000. Labor, parts, FPL has to be present when the pole is disconnected from the meter, etc. etc. ad nauseam. $1000+ is a lot of money,

I don't know what you got. But a 'whole house' protector requires no disconnecting from the pole, no meter removal, etc. It does require (in so many cases) upgrading of the earth ground. Why? No protector provides protection. Protection is the earth ground. The protector is only a device that connects every incoming wire in every cable to earth ground. It sell in Lowes for less than $50.

The 'whole house' protector is only secondary protection. Also necessary is to inspect the primary protection system - a problem that has been reported more often in FPL and First Energy operation regions:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Voltage variations between 115 and 124 are no problem even to vintage equipment. In many locations, the equipment once had to work on 115 VAC systems. In other locations it had to work on 120 VAC. So appliances had a very wide and normal operational range.

Other electrical anomalies such as noise are made irrelevant by filters inside electronics. If you need filters better than that, then consider filters that will therefore be larger such as from Zerosurge, Brickwall, or Surgex. The series filtering must be that larger to have better filtering.

Hiss is typically not from AC mains. Hiss is more likely traceable to internal component aging. Noise from AC mains would not have the wideband frequency response that characterizes hiss.

[Groomlakearea51]

House ground is correctly done; Giant copper spike, etc... There is an auxilliary breaker with a "box" before the main panel, after the meter inside the house; installed by contractor, but can't read manufacturer. I think it's "Guardian" or something like that.

Primary was checked; they replaced the pole can several years ago when the neighbors built their home and it's properly grounded, new big breaker bars, etc.

Internal components have been checked, serviced and where necessary, replaced, on a regularly scheduled basis (every 5 years) by a technician who is competent with that equipment (Been using the guy since 1984). I tend to take very good care of my "stuff".

In any event..... maybe I'll just do solar power in a few years and not have to worry about FPL. [H]

[westom]

House ground is correctly done; Giant copper spike, etc... There is an auxilliary breaker with a "box" before the main panel, after the meter inside the house; installed by contractor, ...
Internal components have been checked, serviced and where necessary, replaced, on a regularly scheduled basis (every 5 years) by a technician who is competent with that equipment (Been using the guy since 1984). I tend to take very good care of my "stuff".

Breaker bars and circuit breakers do nothing for surge protection for a long list of reasons including too slow (microseconds verses tens of milliaseconds) and nothing can stop a surge (will the millimeters in that breaker stop what three miles of sky could not?).

What are you replacing every five years? Properly sized protector means no such replacement. But replacing plug-in protector is another part of the myth that soaks the consumer for tens and 100 times more money.

One 'giant copper spike'? How many feet into what kind of earth? Meanwhile, one large ground rod is a minimal protection. Remember, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. If only one ground rod, you have weaker protection. Due to soil conditions (ie sandy) and the intensity of storms, most FL homes use a significantly larger earthing system - preferrable a buried ground wire around the entier house or an Ufer ground (if the builder was more responsible).

That ground may be sufficient for code - for human safety. But transistor safety means earthing must both meet and exceed the code. For example, how many feet from the breaker box to earth ground rod? How many sharp wire bends? Do all other incoming utiliities also make that 'less than 10 foot' connection to the same earthing electrode? Are ground wires separated from all other non-ground wires? These are also part of the well proven principles that define surge protection. None of this is discussed by manufactdurers of ineffective protectors.

None of this mean any work involving a disconnect from the pole or even three wire wall receptacles. All is about earthing - quality of and connection to a single point earth ground.

Your post is troubling. Implied is ineffective protection. A 'whole house' protector means spending tens or 100 times less money than what APC or Monster Cable promote (and they do not even claim to provide any protection). Breakers never provide appliance protection; only protect you from the resulting fire after damage occurs. The most troubling is only one earth ground rod. Howver, what is the frequency of surges in your neighborhood?

[Groomlakearea51]

Westom: What are you replacing every five years? Properly sized protector means no such replacement. But replacing plug-in protector is another part of the myth that soaks the consumer for tens and 100 times more money.

Generally during the service if caps, or any of the "vintage" electrical parts are not in "spec", then I would replace them. It is seldom. I would rather have a technician check amp bias, adjust offset, etc. I consider this type of service to be preventive maintenance and a good practice (having been fooling around with stereo components since 1971... routine maintenance and service "check-up" is a good policy).

Westom: One 'giant copper spike'? How many feet into what kind of earth? Meanwhile, one large ground rod is a minimal protection. Remember, a protector is only as effective as its earth ground. If only one ground rod, you have weaker protection. Due to soil conditions (ie sandy) and the intensity of storms, most FL homes use a significantly larger earthing system - preferrable a buried ground wire around the entier house or an Ufer ground (if the builder was more responsible).

There is another spike on the fireplace chimney and a solid wire that runs down and under ground (I'm not sure if it goes completely around the house). House is an older home, built old time "Florida Style", as in up off the ground, on a 3' CBS footer, vented, and with a crawl space under the living space. Crawl space is generally dry except during hurricanes, but dries fairly quickly. House is wooden construction, but well built. Ground level are the garages on 6" slabs, and slabs and structure are physically connected to the living spaces. The meter, breaker boxes, etc are in the garage, with only the meter on the outside as required by code. Soil is loam/ earth to approximately 3-4 feet. At that depth is the aquifer which is "shellrock" (a limestone conglomerate). Aquifer is shallow diagonally through my property as my property sits astride an old natural slough. At least my well will never run dry....

Westom: That ground may be sufficient for code - for human safety. But transistor safety means earthing must both meet and exceed the code. For example, how many feet from the breaker box to earth ground rod?

About 5 feet; breaker box is about 5 feet above wall level, and spike is immediately opposite the box on outer wall.

Westom:How many sharp wire bends?

As far as I can tell, only the one bend as it passes the wall.

Westom:Do all other incoming utiliities also make that 'less than 10 foot' connection to the same earthing electrode?

No other incoming utilities; water is well, approximately 50' from structure (code). Well pump is on main house and hurricane generator circuit box. Well pipe is steel inside a 3" iron "pipe" to a depth of about 30'. The steel pipe terminates at well head, and the feed to pump inside is PVC; from pump to water softener system is also PVC; all else after that is copper. PVC is commonly used in the above applications due to very high humidity, corrosion resistance, and ease of repairs, maintenance to pump and softener. Water has low sulfur content (for Florida....), but high iron content (common for Florida). Very little corrosion or residue in house and I have replaced shower heads, etc due to broken handles, etc. No evidence of damage from the water has been found.

Are ground wires separated from all other non-ground wires?

Yes; per code...

Westom:Your post is troubling. Implied is ineffective protection.

If you say so. Most of my posts are probably troubling..... LOLOL!!!

Howver, what is the frequency of surges in your neighborhood?

About once or twice a week during the summer; usually during the seasonal violent thunderstorms; also when rodents of unusual size get into the main distribution system transformer "farms"; latest power loss to western area of county was due to a snake....

The county is a large, but very rural county. Power from FPL comes from St. Lucie nuke plant and/or Martin County coal/gas plant. Grid is all above ground. Only below ground distribution is in those very few housing developments that were built after 2005, or in two cases, high end homes and the developer specified below ground.

[westom]

That grounding sounds better than originally implied. Home's vintage implies the only earthing is a recently installed ground rod that was required by post 1990 code. Not mentioned is a 'whole house' protector located in the main breaker box or in the electric meter pan.

Some additional questions. You have no telephone, cable TV, satellite dish, etc? Those are also incoming utilities that must be integrated into the protection system - also make that short connection to the same earthing electrode before entering the building. Any incoming wire not properly earthed compromises the entire protection system.

Also described is a ligthning rod. That is typically connected to a separate grounding system. How effective will it be? Some will argue pointed verses blunt. More relevant: how good is its earthing?

Protection is about earthing a surge so that energy does not enter the building. Any energy permitted inside a building will hunt for earth destructively via household appliances. We earth energy so that protection inside every appliance is not overwhelmed.

Surges once or twice a week? You mean some neighbor has electronics damage weekly? Destructive surges typically occur once every seven years. In FL, that number is typically once every two years. A surge that a 'whole house' protector is installed for - so that a destructive surge does not overwhelm protection inside every appliance. Other lesser events are also made irrelevant by the 'whole house' protector.

Underground or overhead service makes little difference to the need for a properly earthed 'whole house' protector.

An IEEE Standard entitled 'Static and Lightning Protection Grounding' puts a 'whole house' protector into perspective:
> Lightning cannot be prevented; it can only be intercepted or diverted to a path which will,
> if well designed and constructed, not result in damage. Even this means is not positive,
> providing only 99.5-99.9% protection. ...
> Still, a 99.5% protection level will reduce the incidence of direct strokes from one stroke
> per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

We might add plug-in protectors (or a UPS) for an additional 0.2% protection. Appreciate the massive protection for so little money provided by one 'whole house' protector.

[Malcolm]

And what does someone who does not have the option of installing whole house protection do, say a renter?

[InVeNtOr]

i would say get the furman or panamax models i already listed. if you are going to run seperates or duel subs, i would invent in the 20pfi.

something that is overlooked, the 20pfi (or any device that has 12v trigger) that unit actually saves me money. my amp, ps3, hd-dvd, and sub don't sit in standby sucking up money. those devices listed can cost around $20-$50 just sitting in stand by. i guess i'm cheap because that didn't sit well with me. i did actually test the theory out. the first month i had the entire set up (my older set up) on for watching tv with the sub plugged in. once i received that high electric bill, i had the HT set up only on for movies but kept the sub plugged in. my second electric bill was still high, so i unplugged the sub and only plugged in it for movies. the electric bill had dropped over $70 in those 2 months.

[Groomlakearea51]

Westom: Some additional questions. You have no telephone, cable TV, satellite dish, etc? Those are also incoming utilities that must be integrated into the protection system - also make that short connection to the same earthing electrode before entering the building. Any incoming wire not properly earthed compromises the entire protection system.

The Sat dish and telephone are grounded via the rod. There are two wires connected; the sat installation was done by the installer; the contract covers any damage etc, regardless of the reason. The telephone system was redone about two years ago from the TNI back to set up for DSL which finally became available

Westom: Also described is a ligthning rod. That is typically connected to a separate grounding system. How effective will it be? Some will argue pointed verses blunt. More relevant: how good is its earthing?

The lightning rod wire & ground rod is separate on the west side of the house

Westom: Surges once or twice a week? You mean some neighbor has electronics damage weekly?

When I say surges, I refer to drops to 80-90 and them back up peaking at 130+. #1 damage to electronics, appliances in Okeechobee is due to lightning and the consequences. My neighbor across the street is a general contractor and he advised the same. Appliance folks I know, etc all tell me that lightning is the biggest culprit on failures.

Westom: per 30 years ... to one stroke per 6000 years ...

I can live with those odds....