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Just Tested Out Altec 511s and 902-8s, Quite "Tinny" Sounding


nola

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Just Tested Out Altec 511s and 902-8s, Quite "Tinny" Sounding

Hi

After loosing part of a wall here, finally got to test out, for 10 minutes the altecs.

A put a piece of folded shelf liner between the driver and horn to pad the connection point a bit - hope that is ok. About 1/8"thick.Slight intrusions on the open connection edges, but less than 1/4"in spots.

Made no changes on the ALK Uni Xover. The drivers were 7.3 and 7.7 ohms each.

They sounded quite "tinny". Almost certain the xover points from the alk are incorrect for this driver horn pair though. Probably will have to change the tap points off the autotransformer too.

Any reccs re better xover design for this duo? Trying to use the 511s as both mid range squaker and tweeter. Thus, xover would be 2 way.

Thanx all :)

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I tend to find that some speakers die just as dinosaurs did, it is because it was their time. As a really happy klipsch owner, I just had to hear the Altec 604 duplex speakers, as I remembered them as a child. Well, when I was a kid, they sucked next to my mom's Khorn's. To this day they still don't hold a candle to any pair of Klipsch that I own or others that I have heard.

Speakers die for a reason, evolution. Perhaps the Heritage series has lived so long is because they were so far ahead of the pack at the time of their inception. My 1995 Forte II's still sound as marvelous today as they did when they were first rolled off the assembly line. Sure I do experiment with other models, but I really was so curious that I had to hear these "magic" 604E duplex speakers....lo and behold, they sucked. There is a reason so much of the Klipsch stuff has lived so long, it's because it is just so damn good.

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Yup, I understand.

Thought my journey through the black hole of this audio hobby should include an attempt to try a 2 way with the Khorns or maybe even the LaScala's. The Altec 511/902 combo seemed a good way to try this - and in hard times, maybe the best time to buy the parts. I may also drop a posting about this to the altec heritage forum too.

As per your posting, maybe PWK never went 2 way because the drivers and horns of the day would not allow for it. Perhaps that is still true.

Cheers :))

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Nola, I had the same experience with the 902/511 combination. The low end of the midrange was cold and light. I solved the problem by pairing the 902 to gothover's tractrix horns, and crossing at 600Hz. Sound was greatly improved. I also had to add a bit of contouring to my passives (a parallel RC in series with the squawker) to flatten the response (I was running a two-way). After that, the sound was excellent. Clean and clear with nice sparkle up top. Do you still have your tractrix horns?

I'm not sure about the universals. I know sfogg and others have had luck crossing their Altec 902's at 400Hz. My GPA 902's were slightly farty at 500Hz; it may be the GPA diaphragms are lighter. I believe Bill at GPA doesn't suggest crossing them too low.

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Just Tested Out Altec 511s and 902-8s, Quite "Tinny" Sounding

They sounded quite "tinny". Almost certain the xover points from the alk are incorrect for this driver horn pair though. Probably will have to change the tap points off the autotransformer too.

Any reccs re better xover design for this duo? Trying to use the 511s as both mid range squaker and tweeter. Thus, xover would be 2 way.

Give changing the tap points a try. If that doesn't work out for you, I hope someone here can help you out with a good two way crossover. I tried a 511B with my K-55 driver with my Klipschorn and decided to stay with the original 400 horn. I do like the Altec 511B and 902 combo. I refurbished a set of Altec A7 speakers. I ended up not liking their bass and sold them. I'm contemplating building a different style of speakers using some 511Bs and 902-8s as part of their design. If you end up not liking yours and decide to sell them, email me. I'm watching my local Craigslists and Ebay now to start collecting the components. I'm in no hurry. Going to take my time. Here is the A7s I refurbished a while back. I hope you get it sounding good! Enjoy this audio adventure.

post-18842-13819499904358_thumb.jpg

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks for the replies :))

I still have the ALK wooden horns. I was warned by GPA NOT to run the 902s below 500 HZ at any sign loudness for any sign time.

John, where do you find this stuff?

---------Or not. Attached is the AES paper introducing the La Scala. The
2-way top handled more power and was cheaper, but the 1-way was
smoother.

found this in an AK posting from 1 yr ago:



I've run Trachorns with stock K55Vs and various Altec. They sound great
with K55s and even better with upgraded drivers. So good that last
year, I paired them up with a new set of Altec 902s, and they were good
enough to eliminate tweeters up front (Trachorns up front handle all
the way up).



Just some thoughts.
09-17-2008, 11:05 PM


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tjnif
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So let me get this right...., If I use the trachorns I "do not" need a
tweeter?? I installed the Crites tweeter and use Als Universal
network,K55 mid. Do you have to by the whole ES network or can I use
the universal and "add on" to it?? Where did you get the altec &
Beyma 's?? Thanks for alll the help!

Originally Posted by tjnif
View Post...............
No, not necessarily.



My point was that Trachorns can work nicely going all the way up with
the right drivers, but it is not exactly a simple swap with Khorns - to
just eliminate the tweeters by substituting Altec drivers.



Is not a simple "fix" for most people with Khorns. The problem begins
because the smaller format Altec drivers should not be used below 500
hz - and even though the Khorn bass bin can do 500 hz (in my opinion -
some disagree), most networks are set up (including the Universals) to
cross you over with a gentle slope at 400 hz. To solve the Khorn bass
bin problem, I've augmented my mid bass with a Forte cabinet and Forte
drivers to cover from 300hz to 700 hz.



My recommendation would be to try Trachorns with the stock K55vs and
the Crites drivers first. Bet you will be happy there. Don't worry
about what I have done because I've been known to take things to the
extreme. Works for me though, and I'll never upgrade my
mains................


----

If someone ends up reccomending the ALK ES-500T, I still have my pair for sale. ;-)

that could be pricey....even used.......so I might keep thinking about actives......

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Nola

What are you using for the bass? Homebrew, lascala, etc..? Can you cross at, say 600 or 700Hz?

You can use the 902/trachorn without a tweeter, but you will need some contouring in your crossover to flatten the response, else the high-end will sound rolled off (because it is a bit rolled off, see attached). The 902 has very clean, clear high-end response.

post-26908-13819500119678_thumb.jpg

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Currently, I am modding the Khorns, but could just as easily mod the LsScalas, as they are all in the main room.

I do not have any active xovers now. I have stock Klipsch AAs, some have been recapped with Crites Sonicaps, some have not. I also built the ALK Unis early summer. I have type E xovers in the Heresy Is and the round cup H II xovers as well. Academies x 2,.....whew...... I could also buy some new inductors, caps, etc.

Of course, the various xovers are mated to the orig spkrs (except the ALKs), but I could use them or their component parts to experiment with - if I had someone else's crossover design. I have seen some plans and "charts and tables" for xover design on the net. However, given what I know about their design and the Klipsch driver part specs, Klipsch and Al K crossovers are not "simple" 1st, 2nd, nor 3rd order designs.

So, as it stands, I cannot cross at anything other than what AA or Unis allow for. If these were modded, if I knew how, then I could xover higher.

Also, can the K33s in the Khorn (or LS) bass bin hit 600-700 HZ?

How does one contour the response? Do you need an equalizer, like the $300 Behringer or the one built into the dbx PA/PA+? I do not know if the Electro Voice DX 38 has an eq.

Thanks for your thoughts on the ALK wooden squaker. Maybe the 902s I bought need new diaphragms as suggested by someone else, as the 902/511 combo sounds tinny from both sets (L and R). I will try to rig up a way to test the K55s with the 511s and 902s with Klipsch and ALK squakers as another check too.

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Currently, I am modding the Khorns, but could just as easily mod the LsScalas, as they are all in the main room.

I do not have any active xovers now. I have stock Klipsch AAs, some have been recapped with Crites Sonicaps, some have not. I also built the ALK Unis early summer. I have type E xovers in the Heresy Is and the round cup H II xovers as well. Academies x 2,.....whew...... I could also buy some new inductors, caps, etc.

Of course, the various xovers are mated to the orig spkrs (except the ALKs), but I could use them or their component parts to experiment with - if I had someone else's crossover design. I have seen some plans and "charts and tables" for xover design on the net. However, given what I know about their design and the Klipsch driver part specs, Klipsch and Al K crossovers are not "simple" 1st, 2nd, nor 3rd order designs.

So, as it stands, I cannot cross at anything other than what AA or Unis allow for. If these were modded, if I knew how, then I could xover higher.

Also, can the K33s in the Khorn (or LS) bass bin hit 600-700 HZ?

How does one contour the response? Do you need an equalizer, like the $300 Behringer or the one built into the dbx PA/PA+? I do not know if the Electro Voice DX 38 has an eq.

Thanks for your thoughts on the ALK wooden squaker. Maybe the 902s I bought need new diaphragms as suggested by someone else, as the 902/511 combo sounds tinny from both sets (L and R). I will try to rig up a way to test the K55s with the 511s and 902s with Klipsch and ALK squakers as another check too.

Do you have even rudimentary measuring equipment? It is really necessary in my opinion. This could also let you see what you are hearing with truerta and an eq. Perhaps they are tooo hot on the hf. The altecs don't need to be crossed lower than 500.

The khorn can not hit 600 or 700. This is why PWK wanted the Jubilee. I was told with steeper crossovers and some eq that the khorn could do 550 but not the prettiest. The La Scalas and Belles can go higher than the khorn and would be a better match for what you want to try. I have been told by a many horn experts that you do not want to cross higher than 600hz on a folded horn because it will affect vocals especially female vocals and you do not want that from your LF. The Jubilee has great performance out to 1khz but you can't cross it out their due to voicing.

You really need to be able to measure and see what you are modding instead of having more unknowns than knowns. Mark and JC made me a believer in use rta even if it is just a ballbark estimate of what is going on.

902's are absolutely great but maybe not perfect for this khorn application. The 902 would be better with la scala and belle but with different crossover active or passive. It has been my experience that the best way to go two way is $$$$$$$$. If you don't have allot of money for state of the art drivers that cover such a wide range with ease well than perhaps three way is the better option. This has been a a bitter pill for me to swallow as I like the idea and benefits of two way design but at what price? Will a two way always sound better than a threeway? Not always or not when you are pushing a driver to its limits on low and high end. This is just what I have been going through recently and what I have found the challenges are. It can be done but not as cheaply as we wish.

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I tried a 511B with my K-55 driver with my Klipschorn and decided to stay with the original 400 horn.

Soundbound: I am obtaining a pair of 511B's with the K-55 adaptors to experiment in a pair of K'horns and possibly Belles. I intend to build another pair of tops for both to mount the horns. Questions....

  • In regards to the K'horn. What was the most noticeable difference in sound and why did you go back to the 400?
  • I can use A's, AA's, or A/4500's; which did you use, and what changes did you make?
  • I'd rather keep it as a 3 way; I can use CT-125's or K-77's, but prefer the 125's.
  • I will "flushmount" the 511 horns on a motorboard rather than standing alone; any recommendations? Should they be flush, recessed at all, etc.?

Anybody:

If I try them with the Belles, any thoughts? Recommendations? I'd rather stay "3 way" for the moment and use CT-125's, etc.

Thanks for any input.

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Why keep banging your head?

If you want to try 2-way, use the LaScalas and go for the JubeScala (large or small top horn) approach. Fully Klipsch tested, simply plug & play & be done.

If you want to use the Khorn and go 2-way, then I think you have a bigger challange. As Seti mentioned...that is one of the reasons the Jubilee bass bin was created.

The EV Dx38 DOES have some PEQ's inside it so you can eq.

All that said... I think I recall Rigma having used his K402 on top of his Khorn bass bin (as a 2-way) and he thought it sounded pretty good.

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Also, can the K33s in the Khorn (or LS) bass bin hit 600-700 HZ?

I personally wouldn't cross an LS bin higher than 600Hz.

How does one contour the response? Do you need an equalizer, like the $300 Behringer or the one built into the dbx PA/PA+? I do not know if the Electro Voice DX 38 has an eq.

I was only using one amp (and was and am cash light), so did it passively. It only required a parallel resistor/cap in series with the squawker. I manually entered the data points into an XL-based crossover calculator Ipulled from the web (it's gone from the site, but I copied it to my hard drive).A cheap way to "EQ". When done passively, you're bringing down the low end to flatten response, as opposed to providing boost for the highs.

Thanks for your thoughts on the ALK wooden squaker. Maybe the 902s I bought need new diaphragms as suggested by someone else, as the 902/511 combo sounds tinny from both sets (L and R). I will try to rig up a way to test the K55s with the 511s and 902s with Klipsch and ALK squakers as another check too.

I would recommend at least trying the 902's on the trachorns to see if that improves matters.

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I tried a 511B with my K-55 driver with my Klipschorn and decided to stay with the original 400 horn.

Soundbound: I am obtaining a pair of 511B's with the K-55 adaptors to experiment in a pair of K'horns and possibly Belles. I intend to build another pair of tops for both to mount the horns. Questions....

  • In regards to the K'horn. What was the most noticeable difference in sound and why did you go back to the 400?
  • I can use A's, AA's, or A/4500's; which did you use, and what changes did you make?
  • I'd rather keep it as a 3 way; I can use CT-125's or K-77's, but prefer the 125's.
  • I will "flushmount" the 511 horns on a motorboard rather than standing alone; any recommendations? Should they be flush, recessed at all, etc.?

I went back to the 400 because to me the 511B just spread the sound out further because of its larger mouth. Because it did that it made the mids seem a little lower in volume and that softer sound most others prefer. I found the 400 did it best for me with spreading the mids out through out the room but in a more narrow vertical direct path to my listening position. I like the in my face type sound and then I can adjust it down to my liking with tone controls or an EQ. I do enjoy and respect the soft flat sounding audio components too, but give me all you got and let me tone it down to where I want it.

I placed the 511B horns on top of my Klipschorns. Unscrewed one of the K-55-V drivers off its 400 horn. Connected it to a 511B. Compared the two in mono then stereo. Hooked both K55-V drivers to both 511Bs. Went back to both the 400 horns. I like how they sounded with the 511B horns, but just prefer the 400 horns. I'm one of the few. Don't go by wild me.

I use Bob Crites AA in my Klipschorns. I converted it to the A, but replaced it back to the AA.

I've never heard a set of 125's. I believe what is said about them. I'd like to have a set, but the K-77 does a good enough job for me. I would guess though that if I had some 125's that I'd probably be using them. Shout out to Bob. Hey Bob... Hook a brother up.

I mounted my 511B as I desired. Refer to my A7 photo. I actually had racket ball halves under each front corner and complete racket ball under its rear to stop bass vibration from the A7 bass bin from vibrating the 511B. When I sold them I screwed the tops to the bottoms and was shocked how much the A7 bass bin vibrated the 511B. Not good. The balls stopped pretty much all of it from being transferred. Photo of one of my A7 speakers with the balls for you to see.

Don't misunderstand me about how I feel about the 511B. I love that horn! Love the 902 drivers too! I find them better than the Klipsch 400 horn and K-55-V drivers over all. I just found that for me with the Klipschorn speaker that the 400 blended best. I think Paul did what he could to keep cost down, but his main goal was to make the Klipschorn to his complete satisfaction with its physical limits and not cost limits. I'm sure Paul tried different mid horns. Probably including the 511B. Mostly everything can be improved on. Paul got it good enough for me.

I sold my A7 set, because to me it lacked any bass under 100Hz. Sweet mids and good highs. I am going to buy or build some Altec 19 speakers at some point. I like that Altec sound. To me my Klipschorns sounded better than the Altec A7 speakers. They will probably sound better than the Altec 19 speakers too. I don't find the Klipschorn the best speaker I've heard, but it sure is a fun speaker to listen to and own!

post-18842-13819500142364_thumb.jpg

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Any reason you have to stay with a compression driver?

Ever thought of throwing a fostex fullrange driver on a large horn for your mids and highs?

A great idea to try. I want to try that. It very well could sound better. Has anyone here heard that set up? If so, comparisons?

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