Jump to content

UPDATE: you're up to 100 mph, would you kill the engine, or shift into neutral?


LarryC

Recommended Posts

Now, what do YOU do if you get caught in this situation? I'll bet, with a madly racing engine, a sense of panic, and an inability to slow the car much with the brakes, you'd try turning off the engine. That'd be my response, too! Unfortunately, that will kill the power brakes and power steering, and if you turn the key too far, it would lock the steering!

I have been in this situation before. The throttle stuck wide open on my car. I put the clutch in and let the revs fly while reaching for the key to kill the ignition.

You can't lock the steering wheel accidentally. An automatic has to be in park, and you have to push a release button on a stick shift to turn the key all the way back to lock. Yes, you will lose your power steering and brakes, but you should have enough vacuum for brakes to stop the car unless you're going exceedingly fast. I was doing about 45 so it wasn't a big issue.

About the rev limiters - most modern cars have both rev and speed limiters. My '99 Grand Am has 2 rev limiters. One for when it's in gear - set at the redline of the engine, and the other for when it's in neutral - and that keeps the engine from revving past about 3500 rpm out of gear. You can leave it in park and put a brick on the accelerator and the engine will just hit 3500 and stay there. It's not the best programming, though. In a case of stuck throttle, if you threw it into neutral while the car was moving, it would still use the redline limiter because the car is moving. The car has to be stopped for the neutral rev limiter to be active. I'd hope they changed that before going out of business.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 weeks later...
  • Replies 100
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

An update -- http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fautos.aol.com%2Farticle%2Ftoyota-tragedy-saylor-family.

"When the San Diego County Sheriff's Department Report No. 09056454.1 became public information last week, we learned that the very same car that Mark Saylor drove on August 28 had been reported as having unintended acceleration problems.

Earlier in the week the Saylor family died, Frank Bernard and his wife picked up the very same loaner vehicle -- a white Lexus ES350 with California dealer plate 6DRT323. In a police report, Bernard told the San Diego Sheriffs that that as he was merging onto a freeway, he saw a truck nearby and accelerated briskly to get in front of it. Once in front of the truck, he let his foot off the accelerator. The vehicle "kept accelerating on its own, to about 80-85 MPH."

Bernard said he stepped on the brakes and tried to lift up on the accelerator with his right foot. He got over to the shoulder, was able to slow the car to 50-60 MPH, but was unable to stop the car's ignition (the Lexus has a push-button start system that requires a three-second hold to turn off the car). Trying everything he could, he eventually placed the car into neutral. The engine "made a very loud, whining, racing sound" but the car stopped...

... Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal. When Bernard returned the vehicle to Bob Baker Toyota/Lexus on the evening of August 25, he reported the problems to the receptionist.

"I think the mat caused it," he told the receptionist upon handing her the keys. "You need to tell someone.""

But, no one at the dealership did anything about it or passed the message on. It was loaned out to Saylor three days later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You can't lock the steering wheel accidentally. An automatic has to be in park, and you have to push a release button on a stick shift to turn the key all the way back to lock. Yes, you will lose your power steering and brakes, but you should have enough vacuum for brakes to stop the car unless you're going exceedingly fast. I was doing about 45 so it wasn't a big issue.

I don't have to hit any magic button in my Kia.

Then again if the gas pedal sticks I can just turn on the AC and immediately a = 0.

:)

-Josh

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are correct, all my experience is with mechanical fuel injection, and that is where my head was. Hydraulicing the engine with mechanical injection is most certainly possible with extremely high base compresssion, or enough static compression in a boosted aplication, as well as killing the ignition on a big enough hit of nitrous with big compression.

How do you hydrolock an engine even with mechanical injection?

The fuel injected isn't enough to lock the engine up - it's designed to be compressed that much before ignition. If it doesn't ignite, it just gets blown out the exhaust valve on the next revolution. You never have more than one injection cycle worth of fuel in the cylinder at any given time.

In a turbocharged engine, once ignition is killed the heat and power driving the turbo stop, and boost drops.

In a supercharged engine, the power driving the supercharger stops, and superchargers put a serious drag on a running engine. If anything it will cause the engine to decelerate more quickly than a normally aspirated engine once the ignition is cut.

If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An update -- http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fautos.aol.com%2Farticle%2Ftoyota-tragedy-saylor-family.

"When the San Diego County Sheriff's Department Report No. 09056454.1 became public information last week, we learned that the very same car that Mark Saylor drove on August 28 had been reported as having unintended acceleration problems.

Earlier in the week the Saylor family died, Frank Bernard and his wife picked up the very same loaner vehicle -- a white Lexus ES350 with California dealer plate 6DRT323. In a police report, Bernard told the San Diego Sheriffs that that as he was merging onto a freeway, he saw a truck nearby and accelerated briskly to get in front of it. Once in front of the truck, he let his foot off the accelerator. The vehicle "kept accelerating on its own, to about 80-85 MPH."

Bernard said he stepped on the brakes and tried to lift up on the accelerator with his right foot. He got over to the shoulder, was able to slow the car to 50-60 MPH, but was unable to stop the car's ignition (the Lexus has a push-button start system that requires a three-second hold to turn off the car). Trying everything he could, he eventually placed the car into neutral. The engine "made a very loud, whining, racing sound" but the car stopped...

... Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal. When Bernard returned the vehicle to Bob Baker Toyota/Lexus on the evening of August 25, he reported the problems to the receptionist.

"I think the mat caused it," he told the receptionist upon handing her the keys. "You need to tell someone.""

But, no one at the dealership did anything about it or passed the message on. It was loaned out to Saylor three days later.

Can someone say lawsuit?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are correct, all my experience is with mechanical fuel injection, and that is where my head was. Hydraulicing the engine with mechanical injection is most certainly possible with extremely high base compresssion, or enough static compression in a boosted aplication, as well as killing the ignition on a big enough hit of nitrous with big compression.

How do you hydrolock an engine even with mechanical injection?

The fuel injected isn't enough to lock the engine up - it's designed to be compressed that much before ignition. If it doesn't ignite, it just gets blown out the exhaust valve on the next revolution. You never have more than one injection cycle worth of fuel in the cylinder at any given time.

In a turbocharged engine, once ignition is killed the heat and power driving the turbo stop, and boost drops.

In a supercharged engine, the power driving the supercharger stops, and superchargers put a serious drag on a running engine. If anything it will cause the engine to decelerate more quickly than a normally aspirated engine once the ignition is cut.

If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

No, the liquid fuel does not all blow out with the exaust stroke if the ignition is shut off, hydraulicing an engine in this fashion is rather common in Top Fuel when an ignition fails, The Fuel pump is mechanical and keeps on pumping pressure and with the barrel valve wide open it does not eject all the unspent fuel and it drops out of a more atomized state and builds.

Roger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are correct, all my experience is with mechanical fuel injection, and that is where my head was. Hydraulicing the engine with mechanical injection is most certainly possible with extremely high base compresssion, or enough static compression in a boosted aplication, as well as killing the ignition on a big enough hit of nitrous with big compression.

How do you hydrolock an engine even with mechanical injection?

The fuel injected isn't enough to lock the engine up - it's designed to be compressed that much before ignition. If it doesn't ignite, it just gets blown out the exhaust valve on the next revolution. You never have more than one injection cycle worth of fuel in the cylinder at any given time.

In a turbocharged engine, once ignition is killed the heat and power driving the turbo stop, and boost drops.

In a supercharged engine, the power driving the supercharger stops, and superchargers put a serious drag on a running engine. If anything it will cause the engine to decelerate more quickly than a normally aspirated engine once the ignition is cut.

If I'm missing something, please enlighten me.

No, the liquid fuel does not all blow out with the exaust stroke if the ignition is shut off, hydraulicing an engine in this fashion is rather common in Top Fuel when an ignition fails, The Fuel pump is mechanical and keeps on pumping pressure and with the barrel valve wide open it does not eject all the unspent fuel and it drops out of a more atomized state and builds.

Roger

Link to comment
Share on other sites

An update -- http://autos.aol.com/article/toyota-tragedy-saylor-family?icid=main|htmlws-main-n|dl2|link3|http%3A%2F%2Fautos.aol.com%2Farticle%2Ftoyota-tragedy-saylor-family.

"When the San Diego County Sheriff's Department Report No. 09056454.1 became public information last week, we learned that the very same car that Mark Saylor drove on August 28 had been reported as having unintended acceleration problems.

Earlier in the week the Saylor family died, Frank Bernard and his wife picked up the very same loaner vehicle -- a white Lexus ES350 with California dealer plate 6DRT323. In a police report, Bernard told the San Diego Sheriffs that that as he was merging onto a freeway, he saw a truck nearby and accelerated briskly to get in front of it. Once in front of the truck, he let his foot off the accelerator. The vehicle "kept accelerating on its own, to about 80-85 MPH."

Bernard said he stepped on the brakes and tried to lift up on the accelerator with his right foot. He got over to the shoulder, was able to slow the car to 50-60 MPH, but was unable to stop the car's ignition (the Lexus has a push-button start system that requires a three-second hold to turn off the car). Trying everything he could, he eventually placed the car into neutral. The engine "made a very loud, whining, racing sound" but the car stopped...

... Bernard noticed the floor mat had become stuck under the accelerator pedal. When Bernard returned the vehicle to Bob Baker Toyota/Lexus on the evening of August 25, he reported the problems to the receptionist.

"I think the mat caused it," he told the receptionist upon handing her the keys. "You need to tell someone.""

But, no one at the dealership did anything about it or passed the message on. It was loaned out to Saylor three days later.

Can someone say lawsuit?

That would be an understatement......

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Update -- from the recall notice (below). They're looking at other things, too; a reporter thought they weren't sure of the cause. They may be looking at a bigger modification, like accelerator-brake interaction:

Description

TOYOTA IS RECALLING CERTAIN MODEL YEAR 2004-2010 PASSENGER VEHICLES. THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL CAN GET STUCK IN THE WIDE OPEN POSITION DUE TO ITS BEING TRAPPED BY AN UNSECURED OR INCOMPATIBLE DRIVER'S FLOOR MAT.

Consequence

A STUCK OPEN ACCELERATOR PEDAL MAY RESULT IN VERY HIGH VEHICLE SPEEDS AND MAKE IT DIFFICULT TO STOP THE VEHICLE, WHICH COULD CAUSE A CRASH, SERIOUS INJURY OR DEATH.

Remedy

TOYOTA FILED AN AMENDED DEFECT REPORT ON NOVEMBER 25, 2009, STATING THAT DEALERS WILL MODIFY THE ACCELERATOR PEDAL AND, ON CERTAIN VEHICLES, ALTER THE SHAPE OF THE FLOOR SURFACE UNDER THE PEDAL. THESE CHANGES ADDRESS THE RISK OF PEDAL ENTRAPMENT DUE TO INTERFERENCE WITH THE FLOOR MAT. REDESIGNED ACCELERATOR PEDALS WILL BECOME AVAILABLE BEGINNING IN APRIL 2010 AND DEALERS WILL REPLACE ANY MODIFIED PEDAL WITH THE NEW PEDAL IF DESIRED. ALSO, DEALERS WILL REPLACE ANY GENUINE TOYOTA OR LEXUS ALL-WEATHER FLOOR MATS WITH REDESIGNED ALL-WEATHER MATS, OR REPURCHASE THE PREVIOUS MATS FROM OWNERS WHO DO NOT WANT THE NEW ONES. ADDITIONALLY, SOFTWARE MODIFICATIONS WILL BE INSTALLED ON CAMRY, AVALON AND LEXUS ES 350, IS 350 AND IS 250 MODELS THAT WILL ENSURE THAT THE BRAKE OVERRIDES THE ACCELERATOR IN THE EVENT BOTH BRAKE AND ACCELERATOR PEDALS ARE APPLIED. TOYOTA WILL BEGIN MAILING LETTERS TO OWNERS IN DECEMBER 2009. OWNERS MAY CONTACT TOYOTA AT 1-800-331-4331, LEXUS AT 1-800-255-3987.

Potential Units Affected

4,260,319

TOYOTA MOTOR CORPORATION

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Without going through 6 pages of posts I have this to suggest:

If the car is an automatic trans, then yes, shift into neutral and keep power to the brakes and steering.

But if the car has a manual tras then you can even turn off the ignition keeping it in gear and relying on the forward motion of teh car to turn the clutch, and thus the engine to keep the pully for the p/s pump and at least "some" vaccum left for the brakes.

Just an experienced thought. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the problem is the poor eduction system in the US for obtaining your drivers license. Ever see people try to drive in the snow? Do people know you should turn the wheel back when the car is understeering? A lot of stuff, including how to respond to the stuck throttle and what to do, would be learned in advanced driving classes or a better license system...like finland or sweden. One has a 3 day test to get your license...and you wonder why all the good rally drivers come from that area.

Even by people learning to do autocross/solo1/solo2/gymkhana will help improve peoples driving skills. You learn how the car reacts in 'adrenaline' instances.

Ohh, and manual ftw....how i miss it from my current car.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I still think actually being in that situation is so panic-inducing, that it can block out calm thinking by even an experienced driver.

Here's a summary from Toyota of things to do in today's Washington Post, which MAY NOT BE REMEMBERED in a panic (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803970.html?sub=AR): Would YOU remember to do all -- or any -- of these?

Brake hard and try to shift to neutral

Consumer Reports magazine's instructions are simple: First, brake hard. Then put the car in neutral. When you come to a stop, turn off the engine.

The engine may keep revving loudly while you try to stop, but do not turn it off if you can avoid it. Turning off the engine means you lose power-assisted steering and brakes, and if you turn the key too far, you could lock the steering wheel...

Consumer Reports has a video demonstration on its Web site.

Brake firmly, steadily. Don't pump brakes.

Toyota warns that pumping the brake pedal will deplete the vacuum assist, which boosts the braking force using power from the engine. If that is depleted, you'll need to put much stronger pressure on the brake pedal, and it still might not be enough force to stop safely...

If all else fails, turn off the engine

If you can't put the vehicle in neutral, then turn the engine off. This will not cause loss of steering or braking control, but the power assist to these systems will be lost.

-- If the vehicle is equipped with a conventional key ignition, turn the ignition key to the accessory (ACC) position, but don't remove the key from the ignition, because that will lock the steering wheel.

-- push and hold the start-stop button for at least three seconds to turn off the engine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This Washington Post article is excellent, IMO:

Toyota did not install brake override systems despite complaints

(http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/28/AR2010012803971.html)

Interestingly, Toyota and the government began looking at complaints back in 2004. Some German manufacturers (Volkswagen, Audi, BMW and Mercedes-Benz) began installing brake override systems as long as 10 years ago. Actually, Toyota will be making these standard on some Toyota and Lexus models in 2010. OTOH, Honda and Acura do not plan to install override logic!

Underplayed by the media is the fact that newer pedals work by computers rather than mechanically. Logically, wouldn't these be computer glitches rather than "sticking pedals"?

"Toyota, as well as the NHTSA, appear to have struggled in diagnosing exactly what is causing the trouble." Experts say the override systems can deal with the problems no matter where they come from, e.g., sticking mechanisms, computer glitches.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Part of the problem is the poor eduction system in the US for obtaining your drivers license. Ever see people try to drive in the snow? Do people know you should turn the wheel back when the car is understeering? A lot of stuff, including how to respond to the stuck throttle and what to do, would be learned in advanced driving classes or a better license system...like finland or sweden. One has a 3 day test to get your license...and you wonder why all the good rally drivers come from that area.


For that matter, people need to learn how to use all the controls in the vehicle. I've had newly-licenced drivers ask me how to turn off the annoying blue light on the instrument panel. They didn't know about headlight high and low beams, and yet were able to get a driver's licence. As well, when I see someone driving around with steamed-up windows, I wonder if they know how to operate the brakes and steering any better than they know how to operate the heater and defroster controls.

Finally, has anyone else noticed how many people drive at night without lights nowadays? Ever since daytime running lights became standard, a number of drivers started thinking the headlights come on automatically, so there's no need to even know where the headlight controls are. The headlights are on dimly and the dash lights may be on, but the taillights and licence plate lights are not.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It appears that the problem is related to throttle assemblies from a single supplier, whom Toyota is not naming. The latest news is that the factory fix is to install a shim at some point in the linkage.

Maybe. CTS of Elkhart, IN is frequently cited in news reports. It seems no one knows for certain what the problem is. No doubt Toyota would be thrilled if it's just a shim.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...