robroy3300 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Does anyone prefer the cast aluminium or composite plastic? I need horns for my belle clones,and do not know which I should buy. The k-505's are what came "stock" according to Klipsch, but I have been told the k-400's sound better! Any oppinions? Thanks, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coytee Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 First off, I do not think the Belle uses the same horn that the LaScala uses. The LaScala uses a K400. I think the K400 is a bit longer than what would come in a Belle so a K400 might not fit. As to your main question of metal or plastic, some say the metal horns ring. I won't argue since I don't know. I would say it's probably more a matter of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 The K400 in the La Scala is way bigger in length and mouth size than the K500 used in the Belle. The K505 may be the composite version of the cast aluminum K500. As Coytee mentioned, the composite horns don't have resonance issues like the cast ones, so it would be simpler to just get the composite ones, since they're ready to use and don't need any damping material added, like some folks like to add to the cast horns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sootshe Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Does anyone prefer the cast aluminium or composite plastic? I need horns for my belle clones,and do not know which I should buy. The k-505's are what came "stock" according to Klipsch, but I have been told the k-400's sound better! Any oppinions? Thanks, Rob I can't imagine anyone saying that the K400 horn sounds good!!!What you need are the ALK Trachorn or the Fastrac horn...once you've heard them there's no going back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 K-500/505 is the Belle due to depth of speaker top. Composite is much cheaper, available from Klipsch Parts, and will not have resonance problems (not that I could ever tell the difference....). You will also need the support bracket (easy and much cheaper to make than find a pair), and you will also need two horn to driver gaskets (available from Bob Crites). Soot: To say that no-one would say the 400 does not sound good is probably stretching it.... The K-400/401's? IMHO they have performed quite well for thousands of folks with k'horns & L'scalas. Like any other standard production horn, there are/were always variants that could/can be substituted, but the results also depend upon crossovers, room size, room acoustic treatment, placement, etc. As an example, I finally broke down and bought a pair of Altec 511b's to fool around with on a pair of Klipschorns. Do they work well? Yes. Are they a "quantum leap" in improvement over the composite K-401's installed in that pair? No. Is there a significant difference? Not really. There is a difference, pleasant no doubt, but other than "toy appeal", not really worth the several hundred dollars worth of grill, top piece and crossover mods required to dial them in. Trachorn? Probably a very good alternative. It boils down to what the individual listener likes from the speaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robroy3300 Posted November 17, 2009 Author Share Posted November 17, 2009 Thanks to all that posted-I think I have some thinkin' to do! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JL Sargent Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 PWK studied the resonance phenom and reported that a properly installed metal horn does NOT do it. Bob Crites pointed to the writeup here some time ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sootshe Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 K-500/505 is the Belle due to depth of speaker top. Composite is much cheaper, available from Klipsch Parts, and will not have resonance problems (not that I could ever tell the difference....). You will also need the support bracket (easy and much cheaper to make than find a pair), and you will also need two horn to driver gaskets (available from Bob Crites). Soot: To say that no-one would say the 400 does not sound good is probably stretching it.... The K-400/401's? IMHO they have performed quite well for thousands of folks with k'horns & L'scalas. Like any other standard production horn, there are/were always variants that could/can be substituted, but the results also depend upon crossovers, room size, room acoustic treatment, placement, etc. As an example, I finally broke down and bought a pair of Altec 511b's to fool around with on a pair of Klipschorns. Do they work well? Yes. Are they a "quantum leap" in improvement over the composite K-401's installed in that pair? No. Is there a significant difference? Not really. There is a difference, pleasant no doubt, but other than "toy appeal", not really worth the several hundred dollars worth of grill, top piece and crossover mods required to dial them in. Trachorn? Probably a very good alternative. It boils down to what the individual listener likes from the speaker. No offence meant. Just that I've recently changed to the Trachorn & for my tastes, it was worth every cent & more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 PWK studied the resonance phenom and reported that a properly installed metal horn does NOT do it. Bob Crites pointed to the writeup here some time ago. I have a pair of K-400s and I very much disagree. When the mouth of the K-400 is NOT mounted to a motorboard, it rings like a church bell. Mounted, it still rings, but not much. Almost as much Marketer as Engineer, Mr. Paul was defending his design and the engineering compormises he made. I cannot detect ringing in the short, stiff K-700 horn in my Heresies and wrapping them made no difference. The cost of damping the K-400 in production would be considered too high by Mr. Paul. That's that engineering compromise, again (most bang for the least buck). Wrapping the K-400 in some damping material makes a noticible difference in the edginess of the upper mids. I used Dynamat. The term Calm was used by some many years ago when we first discussed this. If you have K-400s or K-500s, play a woman singing at a realistic level and wrap your hand around the throat of the horn. I think you will see damping is warranted. The composite horns also ring a bit, reportedly. Some have damped theirs and have been happy with the results. The composite horns need damping less than the metal horns and the effort is much higher, so I'm not sure I'd bother. If you do, use rope caulk. It's cheap and easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 " There's a definite 'plasticky' sound without the rope caulk which vanishes immediately with. I was amazed at the difference 'cause I cut the vanes and damped 811s a few years ago with little or no result. " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Hi, I have built a tractrix and used instead of the K401 and have never looked back...so much more to offer in imagery, depth and clarity. The composite is better that the metal, not so much about 'ring' but more about tone! Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Groomlakearea51 Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I have a pair of K-400s and I very much disagree. When the mouth of the K-400 is NOT mounted to a motorboard, it rings like a church bell. Mounted, it still rings, but not much. Wrapping the K-400 in some damping material makes a noticible difference in the edginess of the upper mids. The composite horns also ring a bit, reportedly. Interesting! It also appears that some metals do and some do not (or at least to the point where it's an audible effect). The ringing is of course the result of the alloy and the casting. I only had one pair of 400's that exhibited the ringing. Interestingly, they were a later casting (1986) and were not as thick as the early ones. I fooled around with mounting, and also use a rubber gasket on the mounting flange as a precaution. I also experimented with "soft" dive weights to completely deaden any possible ringing (Simple, just throw a couple 4 pound bags on the top of the horn...) which worked ok, but then I needed the weights for something else.... Another method to remove ringing is to drill a couple holes in the horn and fill the holes with lead (melted wheel weights work fine). I eventually gave up on that pair a couple years ago and replaced them with composite 401's. Those are mounted with a rubber flange gasket and a rubber gasket between the horn vertical brace bolt and between the brace flange and the bottom panel inside the top section. I traded off all of the 400's, and now only use 401's. Never had a problem with 500's, 600's or 700's, but probably because I don't play the music loud enough to notice ringing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnA Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Interesting! It also appears that some metals do and some do not (or at least to the point where it's an audible effect). The ringing is of course the result of the alloy and the casting. I only had one pair of 400's that exhibited the ringing. Interestingly, they were a later casting (1986) and were not as thick as the early ones. I fooled around with mounting, and also use a rubber gasket on the mounting flange as a precaution. I also experimented with "soft" dive weights to completely deaden any possible ringing (Simple, just throw a couple 4 pound bags on the top of the horn...) which worked ok, but then I needed the weights for something else.... Another method to remove ringing is to drill a couple holes in the horn and fill the holes with lead (melted wheel weights work fine). I eventually gave up on that pair a couple years ago and replaced them with composite 401's. Those are mounted with a rubber flange gasket and a rubber gasket between the horn vertical brace bolt and between the brace flange and the bottom panel inside the top section. I traded off all of the 400's, and now only use 401's. Never had a problem with 500's, 600's or 700's, but probably because I don't play the music loud enough to notice ringing. The trick for the engineers is to manipulate the stiffness of the horn to move the resonant frequency out of the horn's operating range and/or raise the stiffness until the resonance is so small in amplitude it is not audible. Plastic seems like a natural material for horns since it is not very stiff and some of it is still a (stiff) fluid at room temperature, so it has good internal damping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 Plastic seems like a natural material for horns since it is not very stiff and some of it is still a (stiff) fluid at room temperature, so it has good internal damping. As well, those plastic horns are very heavily ribbed to increase their stiffness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted November 19, 2009 Share Posted November 19, 2009 I thought I heard a difference when I caulked my K700's. The K700's still sound nasty though compared to a tractrix horn. -Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djk Posted November 20, 2009 Share Posted November 20, 2009 "As well, those plastic horns are very heavily ribbed to increase their stiffness." How about the Klipsch RB-75? The plastic horn in that is more resonant than any plastic horn I have ever heard. I haven't figured out what I am going to do with it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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