CDs, when will they be obsolete?

[Oblio]

...Amiga format floppies,

That reminds me, I need to copy Kickstart 1.3 to a DVD [H]

[maxg]

Pretty fascinating. My LaserDisc player still works fine. I don't know what the BBC MicroComputer disc system was, but by 1986 the LaserDisc standard that still survives was well established.

In any event, I cannot think of any digital medium than can become obsolete as long as it is refreshed...copied to whatever digital storage device is current. As the digital information is not subject to any sort of deterioration, it is only the media that is subject to obsolesence, like the 8" floppy. I have considerable data that originated on PC floppies, Amiga format floppies, etc, that still remains perfectly accessible as I refreshed it over the years as the media changed. I have animations I did at the National University of Singapore in 1986.

Given my stuff is intact, I consider the BBC loss to be pure negligence. They should have given me a copy.

Dave

The BBC's mistake was to not bury a BBC computer and video disk player with the disks. It is an interesting side issue with digital in that there are formats that have come and gone that could become all but impossible to read within a single human lifetime.

With regard to archiving - the Library of Congress has a few records in its archives (10 million I think). Some of these are so bizzare you would not believe it - like 15 inch disks, disks that play anti-clockwise, disks that play from the inside - out, you name it. I know all of this because they use Simon Yorke Turntables to do all transcriptions - and Simon is a mate.

[DrWho]

If resurrecting an old format that doesn't have any players anymore is a concern, then why don't they just rebuild one of the old machines? It's not like modern technology is incapable of the technology of the past. The reverse engineering to resurrect old outdated media doesn't seem beyond the realm of possibility to me...

[Mallette]

My guess is that the issue is the disc. Given the date I suspect it is analog, like the other LD formats. If it were digital it would simply be a matter of reading the data and tailoring a program to decode it. Analog is a stickier wicket requiring hardware decoding.

Just a guess...

Dave

[Don Richard]

I think the most durable modern medium is flash memory, now very cheap and destined to be darn near free soon. 5 years ago I had a compact flash chip in my pocket and it went through a wash and dry cycle. I left it alone for about a week in a dry place, plugged it in, and it was fine. Still is. Incredibly robust.

As you said, all storage media has its strengths and weaknesses. While flash memory is fairly physically robust, static electricity and other issues (gamma rays, cosmic rays) can disrupt electronic memory. This isn't silliness here, many memory errors that affect everyday computers are caused by extraterrestrial radiation. The situation is exacerbated by the increasing memory density seen in modern RAM and flash memory. I initially thought this was a joke when I read about it in Electronic Design magazine a couple of years ago, but it was not in the April issue, and I further checked it out and confirmed what I read was fact. Radiation hardening is common in military and aerospace equipment, not so common in consumer stuff. Flash mem is fairly new so there is no long-term history on its stability. For long-term inexpensive storage, optical storage devices may have an edge, and physical protection from mechanical trauma and/or fire is cheap and easy.

Back to the original topic, it appears that existing CDs will be around for a very long time, even after "obsolescence" occurs.

[Mallette]

>Back to the original topic, it appears that existing CDs will be around for a very long time, even after "obsolescence" occurs.

Fully agree, except that obsolesence happened to the CD quite some time ago. All the gyrations by the 70's engineers to find the least spec to carry high fidelity has long since been rendered a moot point by easy, cheap information density. However, the fact that the CD still reigns is further tribute to the labors of these unsung heros.

Dave

[Islander]

While flash memory is fairly physically robust, static electricity and other issues (gamma rays, cosmic rays) can disrupt electronic memory. This isn't silliness here, many memory errors that affect everyday computers are caused by extraterrestrial radiation. The situation is exacerbated by the increasing memory density seen in modern RAM and flash memory.

Sounds like one day soon a radio DJ might announce, "Solar flare coming! Stash your music collection in its anti-radiation vault by 5:40 pm EST today or it might get wiped! This has been a public service announcement."

[Don Richard]

Sounds like one day soon a radio DJ might announce, "Solar flare coming! Stash your music collection in its anti-radiation vault by 5:40 pm EST today or it might get wiped! This has been a public service announcement."

If it is a gamma ray burst there will be no electric power for the radio station. The last one to hit us is credited for a major power grid shurdown that affected a large portion of the country. Ain't looking good for solid state memory if that happens. Vinyl, tape and optical storage should survrve OK though.

[Oblio]

Sounds like one day soon a radio DJ might announce, "Solar flare coming! Stash your music collection in its anti-radiation vault by 5:40 pm EST today or it might get wiped! This has been a public service announcement."

If it is a gamma ray burst there will be no electric power for the radio station. The last one to hit us is credited for a major power grid shurdown that affected a large portion of the country. Ain't looking good for solid state memory if that happens. Vinyl, tape and optical storage should survrve OK though.

Back in the olden days we kept our software on mylar tape to protect against nuke EMPs.

[Mallette]

When one gets as far as major gamma ray outbursts and nuclear war, I become a bit less concerned about my recordings and a bit more concerned about mien arsch.

Dave

[Islander]

If it is a gamma ray burst there will be no electric power for the radio station. The last one to hit us is credited for a major power grid shurdown that affected a large portion of the country.

One of the problems with gamma ray bursts is that they travel at the speed of light, so you can't see them coming. With a solar flare, there's at least a bit of time for a warning.

[Mallette]

If it is a gamma ray burst there will be no electric power for the radio station. The last one to hit us is credited for a major power grid shurdown that affected a large portion of the country.

One of the problems with gamma ray bursts is that they travel at the speed of light, so you can't see them coming. With a solar flare, there's at least a bit of time for a warning.

What part of a solar flare is slower than light?

Dave

[maxg]

When one gets as far as major gamma ray outbursts and nuclear war, I become a bit less concerned about my recordings and a bit more concerned about mien arsch.

Dave

It doesn't really matter how major it is - it matters how close it is. Apparently a gamma ray burst from an explosing supernova puts out multiples of the energy the sun puts out in its entire lifetime - and the burst only lasts a few seconds usually.

If we are in the direct path of such a burst from anywhere within out own galaxy I think it is safe to say your entire music collection is toast - whatever it is stored on. As a further minor irritation - all life on earth is similarly toast.

[Oblio]

What part of a solar flare is slower than light?

The ejected protons travel at ~1/2 c

[Mallette]

What part of a solar flare is slower than light?

The ejected protons travel at ~1/2 c

Ah, great. 16 minutes is plenty of warning.

Dave

[Don Richard]

Ah, great. 16 minutes is plenty of warning.

ATTENTION: YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

[Chris A]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090902-1859-solar-storm.html

[Islander]

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/090902-1859-solar-storm.html

According to that story, it takes 18-36 hours for a cloud of charged particles from the Sun to reach us. That 1859 storm was attributed to a solar flare that was observed the day before.

Photons and radiation (gamma rays, X-rays, etc.) travel at the speed of light, but not much else does, not even plasma.

Hey, even if all electronics got wiped out, spring-powered gramophones would still work, and it should be easy to design and build 33 and 45 rpm models to play modern discs. A gramophone hooked up to a K402 might even put out a fair bit of volume.