mikebse2a3 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 PWK's thoughts and warning.....!!! Dope From Hope Vol15 no:3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Welllllll when Paul Klipsch made the Khorns,,, His testing was very primitive,, Thiele Small measurements where not around,,, Complience was done with a string,,He called the Pull Facter,,And so on,,,He made many crude measurement and modifications,, Some with an AX,,,I have his tech letters on how rough it was,, But customers by word of mouth knocked on his door,,and wanted him to keep building,, ssctrojan !! dont be discouraged,,,Do what you do best,,and do follow your ears,, Paul did,, What [bs]...!!!! PWK might have had to do things the hard way early on but only a "fool" would believe he didn't believe in proper research, testing and development as well as listening test performed properly. mike tn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 ssctrojan1980..........you are a very talented craftsman but when I read comments like "The bottom line is.... What does your ear tell you. That is all that matters"......and you basically reject measurements and verification............well then......... my bottom line (voice of the customer) becomes " I would never buy a product like that. No matter how nice it looked. It is not an engineered solution. There is no proof of performance. It is just a DIY project." I would never choose such a product over an engineered and proven solution such as Klipsch. Espcially when the designer and manufacturer rejects testing. No one said i didn't test anything. But a test doesn't always good or bad. So proof to you is on paper huh? A test is fine but don't buy much stock in it or you might end up like enron. The proof is the performance. I can say all day the my vette on paper looks good and should be really fast... But until i get her on the track and she what she does the test don't mean a S%&^. But do tell me where i say i "reject testing" Sounds like you have a career for The National Enquirer with quoting skill like that. I'm not asking you to choose my product. You want proof or a test. I live in Oklahoma. I have Klipsch in 1 corner and DIY in the other. Or will the test on paper over rule you and tell that what you hear doesn't sound good. Have a nice day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 While not knowing for sure I would tend to agree with Mike. I read Klementovich's book on PWK. Before he ever got into audio he had amassed many highly technical patents that had to do with ballistics back in the day (40s ?? not sure). I looked at many of those patents and had a difficult time undersatnding several of them. There was plenty of technology back then to measure acoustics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 2a3 Mike.. Careful on what papers you post on here. Cause when Paul Klipsch starts giving warning on immitations... remember a lot of what he designed he first saw from who.... who? JBL. I wonder where his Jubilee design came from?.. I wonder where his idea for the 402 horn came from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 And to respond to this "Dope From Hope vol 15 no 3. Before we start talking quality control and qualifications, If your feeling froggy, i dare you to take 1 single "klipsch" jubilee or Roy Delgado built Jubilee and set it side by side next to mine. I won't cover mine or put any veneer. Just paint them like Roy or Klipsch. I will tell you what. Here in a few days... A good fella in Massachusetts will have 4 jubilee cabinets. 2 "klipsch" jubilees and 2 of my DIY speakers. I'm sure he will be glad to post which speaker sounds better and looks better. But maybe his eyes and ears wont work to test either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Well, you say the proof is in the performance. I say that test documentation proves the performance. Why don't you just invest in some inexpensive measurement software and equipment and run some curves so you know what you really have. Aren't you interested to know? I would be? If you are in business customers will eventually ask. Heck if your speakers are that good they should curve very similar to a Khorn or Jub. Other DIY projects shown here have. And I don't agree at all that my ears be the final judge of a speaker. When you play music you hear the recording, equipment, room........oh.......and the speaker. You really have no idea what you have in the speaker itself. Change the amp, CD player, or go to a different room and it's completely different. All you are doing is comparing one speaker to another. I wouldn't exactly call that testing, but at least you are grounding yourself. You know for a couple of hundred bucks you could get an RTA setup and curve your Khorn or Jub clones and see how close they come to the real thing. Since you obviously think yours sound better, show us the curves so we can all understand why. We all want better. I'd be very interested to see. But your approcah of claims of better sound and rejecting showing us measurements because "all that matters is how it sounds"........well I'm less impressed with that method. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invidiosulus Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 ... I wonder where his Jubilee design came from?.. I wonder where his idea for the 402 horn came from? You say that as if you know what they were based on. I'm curious and I'd like to know myself if you don't mind sharing. -JPB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Well, you say the proof is in the performance. I say that test documentation proves the performance. Why don't you just invest in some inexpensive measurement software and equipment and run some curves so you know what you really have. Aren't you interested to know? I would be? If you are in business customers will eventually ask. Heck if your speakers are that good they should curve very similar to a Khorn or Jub. Other DIY projects shown here have. And I don't agree at all that my ears be the final judge of a speaker. When you play music you hear the recording, equipment, room........oh.......and the speaker. You really have no idea what you have in the speaker itself. Change the amp, CD player, or go to a different room and it's completely different. All you are doing is comparing one speaker to another. I wouldn't exactly call that testing, but at least you are grounding yourself. You know for a couple of hundred bucks you could get an RTA setup and curve your Khorn or Jub clones and see how close they come to the real thing. Since you obviously think yours sound better, show us the curves so we can all understand why. We all want better. I'd be very interested to see. But your approcah of claims of better sound and rejecting showing us measurements because "all that matters is how it sounds"........well I'm less impressed with that method. JBL. James Lansing once said. "If it tests good and sounds bad, throw it away. But if it sounds good and tests bad, find a new way to test it!" I don't need to sound curves to tell me what is good and what is bad. My ear and many other peoples ears are just fine. But you take that approach and don't let your ear be the final judge. Cause what you got on paper is enough for you. On paper my Yukon gets like 21 mpg. Looks good. Go drive it. Not 21 slick. Your that guy that says " hey, look at what i got. Look how great it is on paper. But when you play it is kinda sucks but it sure tests great." You have a nice day too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 The questions are simply this -- which curves the best, has the highest sensitivity, and the lowest distortion? You could actually have a superior build quality (compared to the Jubilee), but still fall short in those areas -- there is simply no way to know without measurements. Claims of superior performance in the subjective realm only have credibility if they are backed by the objective facts. Hey, I don't like it either, but that's the way this business works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 2a3 Mike.. Careful on what papers you post on here. Cause when Paul Klipsch starts giving warning on immitations... remember a lot of what he designed he first saw from who.... who? JBL. I wonder where his Jubilee design came from?.. I wonder where his idea for the 402 horn came from? Please post away...! Please enlighten us...! By the way your already wrong about the K402...! Do you have a clue why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 ... I wonder where his Jubilee design came from?.. I wonder where his idea for the 402 horn came from? You say that as if you know what they were based on. I'm curious and I'd like to know myself if you don't mind sharing. -JPB The Jubilee is a copy of the JBL Hartsfield. Patent issued in 1957 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Uh yeah, I can see the resemblence. http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/patents/hartsfield/page3.jpg http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/extracts/horn_path.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Uh yeah, I can see the resemblence. http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/patents/hartsfield/page3.jpg I can too. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Dead link. Seriously -- the only thing they have in common is that they're folded horn designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Dead link. Seriously -- the only thing they have in common is that they're folded horn designs. Ya... look nothing alike on the exterior. Good observation there Stevie Wonder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 And you're calling me Stevie Wonder? http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/patents/hartsfield/page2.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted January 5, 2010 Share Posted January 5, 2010 Try this link. Who copied who? Nothing like a Jubilee either. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 And you're calling me Stevie Wonder? http://audioheritage.org/images/jbl/patents/hartsfield/page2.jpg yep Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ssctrojan1980 Posted January 5, 2010 Author Share Posted January 5, 2010 Try this link. Who copied who? Nothing like a Jubilee either. http://www.audioheritage.org/html/profiles/jbl/hartsfield.htm Not talking about the khorn mike... try to keep up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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