How bout a Jubilee top?

[mikebse2a3]

mike I'm assuming from your name that you have a 2a3. In your opinion and only your opinion, you probably think that your 2a3 is best? I also like 2a3. But only for my midrange and tweeter. As the base on a 2a3 stinks. Thank god for byamping with a better bass amp. Just my opinion. But i'm sure on paper though... the tests say otherwise... My point being. To you your 2a3 might be perfect and sound perfect. Just as my horns (whatever tests say) might sound better than really other big horn.

Good question..! Read my signature line and you might begin to understand that I don't believe we are at the point were we measure everything that we need to.

Since no amplifiers are perfect what's the next best thing we can do? Learn what their weak ponts are and minimize them the best we can..!

What I do know by measuring my amplifier is that it has a high output impedance that causes it to interact with a speaker's impedance swing. What does that mean in the real world? It means that that is a variable that I must take into account when making judgements about the accuracy of my reproduction when it is connected to whatever speakers I use it with. Now I can deal with this in several ways by speaker selection that doesn't interact in a negative way or I can possibly design a compensation network for the speaker that will null this effect out(which I have done in the past) but one thing is for sure it is an audible effect that unless accounted for is less accurate and I can decide with full knowledge whether I want to live with it corrected or not but at least my eyes are wide open to what is really happening. At least when someone ask me if they should try a 2A3 amplifier (and yes not all 2A3 amplifiers are equal) I can give them what I know and believe are the pro's and cons of such a system.

mike tn

[ssctrojan1980]

mike I'm assuming from your name that you have a 2a3. In your opinion and only your opinion, you probably think that your 2a3 is best? I also like 2a3. But only for my midrange and tweeter. As the base on a 2a3 stinks. Thank god for byamping with a better bass amp. Just my opinion. But i'm sure on paper though... the tests say otherwise... My point being. To you your 2a3 might be perfect and sound perfect. Just as my horns (whatever tests say) might sound better than really other big horn.

Good question..! Read my signature line and you might begin to understand that I don't believe we are at the point were we measure everything that we need to.

Since no amplifiers are perfect what's the next best thing we can do? Learn what their weak ponts are and minimize them the best we can..!

What I do know by measuring my amplifier is that it has a high output impedance that causes it to interact with a speaker's impedance swing. What does that mean in the real world? It means that that is a variable that I must take into account when making judgements about the accuracy of my reproduction when it is connected to whatever speakers I use it with. Now I can deal with this in several ways by speaker selection that doesn't interact in a negative way or I can possibly design a compensation network for the speaker that will null this effect out(which I have done in the past) but one thing is for sure it is an audible effect that unless accounted for is less accurate and I can decide with full knowledge whether I want to live with it corrected or not but at least my eyes are wide open to what is really happening. At least when someone ask me if they should try a 2A3 amplifier (and yes not all 2A3 amplifiers are equal) I can give them what I know and believe are the pro's and cons of such a system.

mike tn

no need to explain... i read schematics fine and understand why a 2a3 doesn't have bass. I understand tubes just fine. I can build electrical stuff in my sleep that would wow anyone on this forum. All that you said here is just trying to talk smart instead of just saying my amp aint got bass no matter what speakers i use. However some 2a3 are better than others... if you understand tubes you would understand why a 2a3 doesn't have the bass it should.

[mikebse2a3]

You are probably right Mike, I should calm down, and if I have offended you by my words I do appologize! the reason for my assumption is the way that you went after Maron Hornzak, I surely did detect what I thought was an attempt to belittle or intimidate him and if that wasn't what you were doing all I will say is then it could have been better stated so that I and others would not come to that assumption. But like I stated I don't want or advocate being judgemental. I purchased my first hi-fi stereo in 1973 and what really drew me to audio was the way others, even if they had much better equipment were like comrads and were always helping, I see how the numbers in this hobby or pastime have dwindled and wonder if it is due to attitudes? I check this forum from time to time and am always amazed that someone is always going after someone in a negative way and wonder why the other forums have so little of this, maybe it is just timing and the fact that I am far to busy to spend much time on any of the forums unless I have a question, and like some friends am getting the attitude don't ask unless you are willing to get ridiculed by the so called forum geru's, doesn't this scatter the flock and not gather them? My intent is not to belittle you or anyone else for that matter, but maybe ALL should step back and say what if a would be audio buff checked out the forums, would he want klipsch? this forum is decidedly more hostile than any others. I spent over 20 years after hearing my first khorns and meeting Paul Klipsch before I owned a pair and if I had checked this forum regularly I can say I would have never purchased them because of attitudes by klipsch owners, maybe this is because we all have so much love and zeal over our beloved klipsch products and their copies, but in the end haven't we become our own worst enemy and everything that Paul himself hated about the audio world?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks spamhead

I agree with alot of what you have said and also am disappointed in the turn the forum has taken. I would much rather see the emotion taken out of alot of the discussions and instead be able to have a logical and reasoned form of discussions with the understanding that sometimes we will just have to agree to disagree.

As far as Maron again please before you judge me you would really need to go back and learn the history that is between us. What I've learned about any forum is it's not always an adequate form of communication and you know what he's probably not as big a "butt head " as I think he is..[]

I really don't think most of us would act and talk the same if in the same room together versus the forum and most of us probably have alot more in common than differences at least I hope that's true..!

Anyway sorry that we got you upset and I do understand why you might feel the way you do but please understand I have what I feel to be good reasons for why I do also.

Best to you spamhead

mike tn

[mikebse2a3]

no need to explain... i read schematics fine and understand why a 2a3 doesn't have bass. I understand tubes just fine. I can build electrical stuff in my sleep that would wow anyone on this forum. All that you said here is just trying to talk smart instead of just saying my amp aint got bass no matter what speakers i use. However some 2a3 are better than others... if you understand tubes you would understand why a 2a3 doesn't have the bass it should.

ssctrojan1980

First I never singled out the bass and as a matter of fact I have excellent bass delivered by my 2A3 push/pull amp.

I guess you don't realise that the coloration I'm talking about can happen anywhere in the frequency spectrum.

Look spamhead is right..! the attitudes need to drop and we all might learn something...!

I would really like to see different points of view be debated in a logical and fact based manner and leave the emotions out of it..Can we do that?

mike tn

[ssctrojan1980]

no need to explain... i read schematics fine and understand why a 2a3 doesn't have bass. I understand tubes just fine. I can build electrical stuff in my sleep that would wow anyone on this forum. All that you said here is just trying to talk smart instead of just saying my amp aint got bass no matter what speakers i use. However some 2a3 are better than others... if you understand tubes you would understand why a 2a3 doesn't have the bass it should.

ssctrojan1980

First I never singled out the bass and as a matter of fact I have excellent bass delivered by my 2A3 push/pull amp.

I guess you don't realise that the coloration I'm talking about can happen anywhere in the frequency spectrum.

Look spamhead is right..! the attitudes need to drop and we all might learn something...!

I would really like to see different points of view be debated in a logical and fact based manner and leave the emotions out of it..Can we do that?

mike tn

I'm not an emotional guy.... But yes know what your saying when you say it. not just cause someone else told you that and thats what you think. None of this bickering between anyone or with anyone bothers me.

[Deang]

Some personalities don't translate well across the keyboard, unfortunately, I have one of those. I didn't start with an attitutude. I made what I thought were some reasonable comments and you insulted me by calling me blind, which I mostly am -- but that's besides the point.[]

Look spamhead is right..! the attitudes need to drop and we all might learn something...!

Some in this thread have been studying horns for a decade or longer. One thing we all know is that small errors can translate into big problems. You bring something to the table and it's critically examined. There is a request for data -- and your response is? I mean, you're selling these things to people. Of course, if the people who are buying them don't care, why should we.

I guess the bottom line is this: there are about a half dozen different plans floating around, and none of them are the Klipsch plans -- so in reality, you're not building Jubilees. That's not an insult, just an observation. I suppose close enough is good enough as long as it's really close enough -- it would be nice to know just how close though.

As someone who builds and sells "Klipsch" crossovers, I understand the dilemma you're in. I also understand the criticism -- believe me, I've been on the receiving end of that more times than I can remember.

I used to do a lot of self-promoting around here. Back when I was doing it, I didn't see it as self-promoting, just a sharing of what I was doing. When I quit sharing what I was doing, and other people started sharing what they were doing -- I saw it as self-promoting. The best thing you can do is to quit talking about your work. Do what I do -- pay your customers to write great reviews.[8-|]

[laager]

Do what I do -- pay your customers to write great reviews.

The easist way is by making great products...... []

[spamhead]

Some personalities don't translate well across the keyboard, unfortunately, I have one of those. I didn't start with an attitutude. I made what I thought were some reasonable comments and you insulted me by calling me blind, which I mostly am -- but that's besides the point.

Look spamhead is right..! the attitudes need to drop and we all might learn something...!

Some in this thread have been studying horns for a decade or longer. One thing we all know is that small errors can translate into big problems. You bring something to the table and it's critically examined. There is a request for data -- and your response is? I mean, you're selling these things to people. Of course, if the people who are buying them don't care, why should we.

I guess the bottom line is this: there are about a half dozen different plans floating around, and none of them are the Klipsch plans -- so in reality, you're not building Jubilees. That's not an insult, just an observation. I suppose close enough is good enough as long as it's really close enough -- it would be nice to know just how close though.

As someone who builds and sells "Klipsch" crossovers, I understand the dilemma you're in. I also understand the criticism -- believe me, I've been on the receiving end of that more times than I can remember.

I used to do a lot of self-promoting around here. Back when I was doing it, I didn't see it as self-promoting, just a sharing of what I was doing. When I quit sharing what I was doing, and other people started sharing what they were doing -- I saw it as self-promoting. The best thing you can do is to quit talking about your work. Do what I do -- pay your customers to write great reviews.

I agree Dean, and I will offer you the same appology that I gave 2A3 Mike last night and I do so because I included you in a heated response I gave him last night about attitudes, I hope you haven't been offended by my words. And I do agree with you both on the area of testing our horns or cabs that we sell I just am saying that we cannot sell them at prices that are drastically less and also purchase test equipment and build sound chambers. And from what I have studied about sound tests if your test mic is 1/4 or 1/2 an inch moved from your last test its invalid, so these things along with funds are what prevent testing at this point until more is learned. Those who were around Paul Klipsch in the beginning of the khorn have told me that his first ten sets were all different and all with different dimensions, he had no test equipment either so he relied on his ears and the opinions of audiophiles he trusted until he made the money to afford better. KLH Dynaco and Advent were all companies started by people who started in garages by people who weren't neccesarily trying to get rich, just doing what they enjoyed. And once again you are correct about the jube plans floating around, I have a set that one speaker doesn't fit perfectly in the corner (off by about 3/4") and the other off by about 1/2" that come from plans which aren't correct, do they sound the same? no one will know unless they are tested and probably won't ever be. They will however make someone finer reproduction that they will ever have the opportunity for because of their budget they are on. And yes they are copies, knockoffs or what ever you wish to call them, they are unlike pirated cds or blue jeans never going to affect the bottom line of klipsch. The plans I now use I am not allowed to make public where they came from, I will tell you that this man is most respected in the custom audio world and his products are considered second to none, if I could tell you his name you Dean would also agree with me that his reputation and integrity are indeed proven. When he states that Roy Delgato himself has said (because of disclosure and proprietary issues) that these plans are "pretty much it" I can accept this as the best thing next to actual klipsch stamped plans, and I know many will say pretty much isn't an exact term but when it is said with a smile and a nod to a person he (Roy) respects then I can say it is the best set available. Greg Roberts seems to be a well respected member of this forum, did he receive such scrutiny when he "pirated" ALK's trachorn produced by Bill Martinelli? Isn't he selling right here on the forum Martinelli-ALK knockoffs? I guess it is subjective like most things and must be determined by the individual. I guess what I am saying is that we will never get rich selling cabs at the prices we do, hopefully we can afford test equipment to prove we aren't ripping people off, the people who have listened to my copies dont think so, I have a man who has tads and bryston amps setting around not being used that has purchased a set of khorn cabs I built because the bass is in his and others opinions better than his 1986 cabs, Wheather in my listening room or his it is agreed upon, I think probably because of the 3/4 I used internally and not 5/8" that I am told earlier khorns were made with, he is the rare customer I deal with, he can afford anything he wants, most of my customers cannot wheather it is a jube or a khorn or L300 or cornwall copies that I have made, none have been perfect, they have however been affordable. This world is full of copies, when I can afford the origional wheather is is an Apple or a Cadillac I buy it, when I cannot I buy a copy and as long as I am happy what else really matters?

[mark1101]

Hey Spamhead and SSTrojan1980..........care to introduce yourselves to the forum by your real names? After all you are in business, why use a false name? Do your businesses have names? It would be nice if you shared this information with the forum so we know who you are. Thanks

[Deang]

Good response Spamhead.

As for Greg, there were several long threads while he was developing the upgrade. He got a lot of input from a lot of people (including Al), and he followed a great deal of it. When he was done, he sent his finished product to those who where willing to test. Results were posted in the aforementioned threads. Now, his selling on the forum is a different matter, and I certainly have a problem with that -- some of us here are no longer permitted to do it. I joked with Crites on the phone the other night that if it didn't stop that I was going to start posting ads.

My phone was ringing like crazy last night because of this thread. I don't know why, but I always end up finding out stuff that others would prefer I don't know. I not only know what plans you are using, but what brand of underwear you guys wear. I have no idea how they knew the latter and I sure wasn't asking.

Basic test equipment for measuring speakers isn't that expensive, and you don't need a chamber, you can drag one of them outside to do it. I heard you build a very nice set of cabinets. If I had your skills, curiosity would be killing me -- I'd have to know what I had.

[ssctrojan1980]

Hey Spamhead and SSTrojan1980..........care to introduce yourselves to the forum by your real names? After all you are in business, why use a false name? Do your businesses have names? It would be nice if you shared this information with the forum so we know who you are. Thanks

My Name is Curry.

[ssctrojan1980]

Basic test equipment for measuring speakers isn't that expensive, and you don't need a chamber, you can drag one of them outside to do it. I heard you build a very nice set of cabinets. If I had your skills, curiosity would be killing me -- I'd have to know what I had.

correct me if i'm wrong, but when buying equipment to measure sound; its not like buying Delmonte green beens to great value. Those taste the same when when you dealing with this type of equipment, are the cheap ones the way to go?

[Invidiosulus]

If you are so interested in giving the gift of finely reproduced music than why don't you guys give away your jub like klones for just the cost of materials?

-JPB

[ssctrojan1980]

If you are so interested in giving the gift of finely reproduced music than why don't you guys give away your jub like klones for just the cost of materials?

-JPB

No Problem!.... Actually you can have a pair ..... packaging and shipping will run around 2300

[Invidiosulus]

If you are so interested in giving the gift of finely reproduced music than why don't you guys give away your jub like klones for just the cost of materials?

-JPB

No Problem!.... Actually you can have a pair ..... packaging and shipping will run around 2300

Now who's being dishonest?

[]

[Deang]

It is my opinion that set-ups like JC or DrWho use are sufficient. Basic measuring will reveal any glaring errors, which you certainly want to know about. Almost everyone here has been in the embarrassing position of relying on their ears, only later to find out that their ears were lying to them. The ears sometimes have a terrible habit of interpreting any change as "better". I once made a change in my crossovers, and then while wiring everything back together, inadvertantly reversed the polarity of the low pass section on one of the loudspeakers -- I thought it sounded great! I listened that way for a month before catching it.

[JRH]

I don't follow much of the forum, but this thread appears to have been "all over the map".

First, this thread contains discussion that seems to walk a fine line with respect to commercialism. Fortunately there seems to have been some "self-correction" which is a positive thing.

Second, there were statements that Paul Klipsch "copied the Hartsfield", that he did not have measurement equipment "in the beginning", and that the first 10 K-horns were all different. I can positively state that Paul had no love for the Hartsfield, and that he made tape recordings of Hartsfield and Klipschorn outputs to demonstrate the differing degradations contributed by each. The Klipsch archives show clearly that Paul's earliest efforts (pre-1940) were accompanied by acquiring measurement equipment, as meager as it may have been by today's standards. He made his response curves one point at a time for years. Meager equipment seldom deters brilliant minds from getting the answers they are after. It just takes more elbow grease.

Also, after the first sucessful Klipschorn prototype (X3 woofer and X5 squawker) the next 12 woofers were identical units built for him by Baldwin Piano Company in Cincinnatti. Whether the top ends were identical or not is unclear, but we do have the records of buying 12 Western Electric 713A's at that time. The following 7 units were built in Reed's cabinet shop, and "were all different". In large measure, the differences were cosmetic. The one definite technical evolution was the connecting of the sinuses with the primary back air chamber.

Mainly trying to keep the historical record clear.

[artto]

. A good fella in Massachusetts will have 4 jubilee cabinets. 2 "klipsch" jubilees and 2 of my DIY speakers. I'm sure he will be glad to post which speaker sounds better and looks better. But maybe his eyes and ears wont work to test either.

I am now going to add to the fray.

Hey dude, we don't care if your speakers sound better to you, or any body else for that matter. Everyone (hopefully? I guess not) knows that "sounding better" is a very easy task which can be accomplished with a Bose Lifestyle system, some cheap headphones, or even a 1978 car stereo.

The real problem is, does it sound REAL. Can it fool you? Can it fool others? Does the speaker "disappear"? Does the room disappear? Is it indistinguishable from the original sound, be it a single voice, or a whole band?

"If you can just get your mind together

Then come on across to me"

"So, are you experienced?

Have you ever been experienced?

Well, I have"

I have

[spamhead]

Good response Spamhead.

As for Greg, there were several long threads while he was developing the upgrade. He got a lot of input from a lot of people (including Al), and he followed a great deal of it. When he was done, he sent his finished product to those who where willing to test. Results were posted in the aforementioned threads. Now, his selling on the forum is a different matter, and I certainly have a problem with that -- some of us here are no longer permitted to do it. I joked with Crites on the phone the other night that if it didn't stop that I was going to start posting ads.

My phone was ringing like crazy last night because of this thread. I don't know why, but I always end up finding out stuff that others would prefer I don't know. I not only know what plans you are using, but what brand of underwear you guys wear. I have no idea how they knew the latter and I sure wasn't asking.

Basic test equipment for measuring speakers isn't that expensive, and you don't need a chamber, you can drag one of them outside to do it. I heard you build a very nice set of cabinets. If I had your skills, curiosity would be killing me -- I'd have to know what I had.

Thanks for the response, I would like to test and was under the assumption it was very expensive and although I am not a financially rich person it appears that with your help as to what software I need I could see to rounding it up and do some testing because I would like to know about the jube cabs, I have a pretty good idea about some of the wood horns because they are (horns) all basically some form or another copies of previous horns, I think any new design or bend is about used up. One horn that everyone has liked made me momentarily puff up my chest and begin to breathe a little to deeply until I realized it is basically about a 225hz copy of the bentwood 200, so much for my design prowess, I will stick to what I do best use my hands in a manner taught to me by other skilled craftsmen, I will look forward to your insight along with any others on test equipment, as far as your phone ringing off the hook- sorry about that but it just goes to show ya can't believe alot of what is said on the forums, first off contrary to popular belief I AM NOT using the cullison plans, I did build one set from them but have opted for the plans I previously mentioned on here last night, and its obvious that your phone callers are liars because I don't wear undies, I am a free swinger! LOL!

[spamhead]

If you are so interested in giving the gift of finely reproduced music than why don't you guys give away your jub like klones for just the cost of materials?

-JPB

If you figure the amount of time that it takes to build these cabs your not far off from that being what I am doing, I see that you are still listening to heresy's. I got rid of mine after college, maybe I can interest you in a speaker upgrade!