What Turntable - $600 budget

[dgoreck]

I've been searching here, and trying to find info. So a lot of people seem to recommend Technics SL-1200 or Thornes. Now, I think I may like the Thornes better for the looks. I've been trying to figure out the differences between modesl, say the TD-124, TD-125, TD-147, TD-166. Lots of the used stuff. But, it doesn't seem necessary that higher number means better TT. I've glanced over the Thorens Dept site (http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_dept_.htm) but still kind of lost between the models. I'm not limiting myself to Thornes or the Technics. Open to suggests.

I'm open for new or used for under $600.

I have a few LP's already, but don't want to buy more till I get a TT. Looks like this will be used with my Heresy II's w/sub and my Scott 299B amp.

Thanks,

Dan

[jamesV]

Dan,

This question would be better off in the 2-channel section. There was a similar questioned asked but for a limit of $1000. The funny thing is that must of the answers were under $500 or so, here is the link to that thread. As I posed in that thread, I got a Thorens 160 and a few items for it like a new cart and belt and still came in under $250.

One of the things about the different models is the ability to play 78's, are you just looking to play 45 and 33? I'm sure others will chime in to help you out more.

James

[hklinker]

Dan-

Does the $600 budget include the tonearm, and cartridge? What kind of cartridge do you want, moving magnet or moving coil? Do you want to play 78's?

This summer, I picked up a TD-124 with a Shure SME 3009 Series II unimproved arm and Ortofon SPU cartridge for $900 on eBay. There are several good sites I could direct you to:

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/td124page.html

http://www.theanalogdept.com/thorens_history.htm

http://stereophile.com/artdudleylistening/506listen/

There are good articles that differentiate between the better models and the not so good ones. A decent TD-124 will go for $500-$800 on eBay, many times this will include an arm and cartridge. Later models are more reasonable, consider the 125 or the 160 as alternatives.

I would start with eBay to get a feel for the market, then depending on your locale hit the estate sales.

Good luck!

Herb

[dgoreck]

Thanks guys. None of the 6 LP's that I have are 78's. So I would think 33/45 would be fine.

I've read that other thread. It does have some good info. The history page on the Thorens Dept site, definately helped put a timeline together for me of the different models.

[ptaylor]

check out Project's debut III,it got a really good review in Stereophile this month.

[artto]

The Thorens TD124 is the "grand daddy" of all the Thorens we know today. The TD125 and 126 followed. The 125 is 16/33/45 rpm while the others have 78 and the 124 all four speeds. Interestingly , the "higher" numbers (160 166 etc) are usually the more budget-minded models, but still very fine decks, usually integrating a Thorens tonearm as opposed to the option of a user selected one.

Personally, I'd stay away from the Technics 1200. It really needs a special plinth in order to perform properly for audiophile type performance and even then IMHO is not what we audio types are looking for. It is a direct drive TT intended primarily for the professional broadcast & DJ market where fast start/stop times and "scratching" are required. The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks (except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is inferior to even the average belt driven TT. Professional broadcast and DJ have their own set of requirements and the highest fidelity is not one of them.

Here's an overview of Thorens:

http://www.stefanopasini.it/images/Thor1215.pdf

[artto]

Also, keep in mind that the tonearm/pickup cartridge combination is much more important than the turntable itself, although there are some arm/TT combinations which are not compatible, especially when combined with certain pickups (a direct table w/low mass arm like a Black Widow & a Decca cartridge for instance).

So if there's a particular pickup cartridge you're interested in, your next choice should be the arm, and then the TT.

[JL Sargent]

"The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks
(except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is
inferior to even the average belt driven TT"

Why does this matter when listening to a record?

I guess I just remember as a kid the TT offerings at Woolworths with DD cost more $$$.

[dgoreck]

check out Project's debut III,it got a really good review in Stereophile this month.

was looking into this too as well as Music Hall MM2.2. I think it will be between those too. I think I rather get new right now, then go with something used.

[artto]

"The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks
(except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is
inferior to even the average belt driven TT"

Why does this matter when listening to a record?

I guess I just remember as a kid the TT offerings at Woolworths with DD cost more $$$.

It matters especially when listening to a record!! Rumble is just very low frequency noise. The lower frequencies modulate the higher frequencies causing modulation distortion, resulting in "muddiness" and change of timbre. Also, it is desirable to have an tonearm/pickup resonant frequency well below the audible range. The higher rumble levels in direct drive turntables can aggravate this. On top of all this, the sub-sonic rumble frequencies will also excite the woofers causing unnecessary power consumption from the power amplifier which may in turn reduce the dynamic range available for music. It's all a viscous circle. Not good. Some of these so-called "high quality" direct drive turntables actually have as much as 20dB more rumble than, say the unweighted performance of a Linn Sondek LP-12 or a top notch Thorens.

Woolworths? I thought Woolworths was a dime store. I don't ever remember seeing any turntables at Woolworths, especially expensive direct drives.

[JL Sargent]

Thanks Artto, I did not know all that.

On the store, I thought it was Woolworth's but maybe it was Sears? Anyway, I have a great deal to learn about audiophile quality turntables obviously. And I thought my old Akai DD fully auto was pretty good.[:$]

[oldenough]

And I thought my old Akai DD fully auto was pretty good.

You may have been right.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Personally, I'd stay away from the Technics 1200. It really needs a special plinth in order to perform properly for audiophile type performance and even then IMHO is not what we audio types are looking for. It is a direct drive TT intended primarily for the professional broadcast & DJ market where fast start/stop times and "scratching" are required. The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks (except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is inferior to even the average belt driven TT. Professional broadcast and DJ have their own set of requirements and the highest fidelity is not one of them.

The Technics gets to much bad press that is definately not deserved.

I modded my Technics Sl1210 by mounting is power supply in a separate chassis and adding a Sumiko Tonearm fed to a Juicy Music Tercel. I also have an SME IV for it that I can quickly change out. It is very much an Audiophile grade table. My frame of reference is a Rega P9 and Shelter 90x combo that I also use in the same system fed to a Musical Fidelity KWP preamp's internal phono stage. In this price range I'd take the Technics over a Rega P3 or whatever is the current model at that price point because it can be upgraded so much.

[oldenough]

Personally, I'd stay away from the Technics 1200. It really needs a special plinth in order to perform properly for audiophile type performance and even then IMHO is not what we audio types are looking for. It is a direct drive TT intended primarily for the professional broadcast & DJ market where fast start/stop times and "scratching" are required. The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks (except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is inferior to even the average belt driven TT. Professional broadcast and DJ have their own set of requirements and the highest fidelity is not one of them.

The Technics gets to much bad press that is definately not deserved.

I modded my Technics Sl1210 by mounting is power supply in a separate chassis and adding a Sumiko Tonearm fed to a Juicy Music Tercel. I also have an SME IV for it that I can quickly change out. It is very much an Audiophile grade table. My frame of reference is a Rega P9 and Shelter 90x combo that I also use in the same system fed to a Musical Fidelity KWP preamp's internal phono stage. In this price range I'd take the Technics over a Rega P3 or whatever is the current model at that price point because it can be upgraded so much.

Remember there is a whole lot of bias around T/T types, and a lot of the bad rap surrounding direct drive is not deserved.

[garymd]

Personally, I'd stay away from the Technics 1200. It really needs a special plinth in order to perform properly for audiophile type performance and even then IMHO is not what we audio types are looking for. It is a direct drive TT intended primarily for the professional broadcast & DJ market where fast start/stop times and "scratching" are required. The unweighted rumble perforamance of virtually all direct drive decks (except the most expensive, largest, heaviest lathe-type systems) is inferior to even the average belt driven TT. Professional broadcast and DJ have their own set of requirements and the highest fidelity is not one of them.

The Technics gets to much bad press that is definately not deserved.

I modded my Technics Sl1210 by mounting is power supply in a separate chassis and adding a Sumiko Tonearm fed to a Juicy Music Tercel. I also have an SME IV for it that I can quickly change out. It is very much an Audiophile grade table. My frame of reference is a Rega P9 and Shelter 90x combo that I also use in the same system fed to a Musical Fidelity KWP preamp's internal phono stage. In this price range I'd take the Technics over a Rega P3 or whatever is the current model at that price point because it can be upgraded so much.

That's way too much work for someone looking for their first TT. If you need to do THAT much work to get a table to sound up to snuff, it probably isn't for someone just starting out. JMHO

I highly recommend a nicely maintained Thorens in your price range or possibly less. I think they sound better than the cheaper Regas, Music Halls or ProJects.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

Gary,

I agree, but that would also break his budget. My point is that the technics is actually audiophile quality and not to be ignored. It works very well with the stock tonearm and a medium compliance cart. It can also be upgraded later using a tonearm plate available on the net (I made mine but it tok a lot of effort) and brought to a much higher level.

Never heard the Thorens but they are very highly regarded.

[artto]

Gary,

I agree, but that would also break his budget. My point is that the technics is actually audiophile quality and not to be ignored. It works very well with the stock tonearm and a medium compliance cart. It can also be upgraded later using a tonearm plate available on the net (I made mine but it tok a lot of effort) and brought to a much higher level.

Never heard the Thorens but they are very highly regarded.

It would not break his budget. I'm selling a Thorens T-125 MKII with Thorens TP16 tonearm and an Ortofon VMS20E installed to a Forum member's friend for $300. I've had this table listed in Garage sale a number of times with no takers. It was only when I responded to Seth's WTB request that it sold. It's a fine TT and it will outperform any direct drive TT costing many thousands more. As a matter of fact, direct drive fans, do yourself a favor. Google "Technics SP10", their flagship DD TT and see what it says. Count how many times they reference Thorens, EMT and Garrard turntables. It's almost like they are trying to convince themselves.

http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/sp10page.html

And for those of you doing all those mods to your DD TT just to get it right, well Gary hit it right on the head a few posts up. On top of that, the problem with DD TT is not in things like the power supply or its location, its the motor itself which impart the high amounts of rumble. They are the wrong product for this application, or at the very least, the less desirable performer.

"My point is that the technics is actually audiophile quality and not to be ignored." And I say HorseHockey. Anything with that much unweighted rumble is not audiophile quality. Those units were designed and intended for radio broadcast stations, studio use and disco DJ's. Do you really think it's just coincidence that these units showed up around the same time that disco and rap did?

Now, that being said, if you like your DD TT, Great! But please, don't tell me how good it is, or that its better than the best Thorens or Linn. Because it is not. And that's not an opinion. It can be measured, and heard. Whatever you can do with a DD, you can do better with a belt drive ~ except, start and stop extremely fast ~ which is something all we audiophiles need, right?

[Islander]

"My point is that the technics is actually audiophile quality and not to be ignored." And I say HorseHockey. Anything with that much unweighted rumble is not audiophile quality. Those units were designed and intended for radio broadcast stations, studio use and disco DJ's. Do you really think it's just coincidence that these units showed up around the same time that disco and rap did?

You might want to re-check your facts. The Technics units were made first for home hi-fi use, except possibly the SP-10 model. They were later adopted by many DJs due to their durability, reliability and resistance to room-borne vibration in loud environments.

Recognizing this, Technics added some features like pitch adjustment as a convenience for DJs, but those features don't impair the sound in any way.

Hi-Fi World, a UK audio magazine has modded a few SL-1200s with very impressive results, finding them to perform on a level with some more expensive belt-drive turntables.

[tigerwoodKhorns]

"My point is that the technics is actually audiophile quality and not to be ignored."

Now, that being said, if you like your DD TT, Great! But please, don't tell me how good it is, or that its better than the best Thorens or Linn. Because it is not. And that's not an opinion. It can be measured, and heard. Whatever you can do with a DD, you can do better with a belt drive ~ except, start and stop extremely fast ~ which is something all we audiophiles need, right?

I didn't say that it is better than the best Thorens or Linn. I also didn't say that it is as good as my Rega P9, but I did say that it is Audiophile quality and not to be ignored.

Hear is a heads up to the OP - there is a Technics Sl1200 described as in great shape but missing one foot for $200 in the Garage sale that was just listed in a thread ("having a garage sale" or something like that). Pick up that table, a new foot for $10 from KAB or ebay, and a new Audio Technica AT150 MLX cart for $350. This is right at your budget with shipping. You can add a Sumiko HS 12 headshell later for $50 (or now and go a little above your budget). If you do not like it you can sell and get your money back.

My friend has this setup and it sounds great through his system (he uses B&W 801's and Theil Speakers with VTL tube monoblocks and a Musical Fidelity preamp). The AT really gets deep in the grooves and is really quiet with a lot of detail. It also seems to work well with the stock Technics arm and Sumiko headshell as far as compliance and effective weight. Last time I was there I was really impressed at how good it sounded. Our other friend, who has a really high end system with an analog front end, also could not believe just how good it sounded. Not that expensive equals outstanding, but his system is dialed in and one of the best that I have ever heard and he relly liked the combo too.

[jheis]

Hey Guys

You might want to remember that you're giving recomendations to someone who owns exactly 6 (six) LPs.

Rocket science is not required - although vinyl is not exactly rocket science - or even rock science. I suspect that this will be a short lived infatuation. Any functional TT should be adequate for him to decide if he wants to continue....

James