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A Mistake Changing the TYPE Of Capacitors In Old Klipsch Speakers


ka7niq

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Ok, sometimes we are forced to change the old, bad caps in Klipsch Heritage Speakers.

The old caps are bad, so we usually choose the "best" cap we can afford, and solder it in the crossovers.

I have done near 50 old speaker reurbishings, and here is what I have found, and the capacitor merchants aint gonna like it!

Replacing an old Mylar or Electrolytic with a better Poly is NOT always the best course of action.

Yes, I have improved some speakers by doing this, buy I have "kept score", over the years.

MOST times, I have indeed changed the sound, but not always for the better!

You see, many times the original caps ESR was taken into consideration, and swapping to a lower ESR, less lossy cap aint always better.

DARE to try it, and replace a mylar WITH a Mylar, or an electrolytic with a new electrolytic, and see what I mean ?

My old JR 150 speakers from Jim Rogers in England use all electrolytics.

I used the very best poly caps to replace the old electros, and the result was not as good as when I used some new cheap electrolytics!

The very best way IMHO to experiment is to pull the crossovers if possible outside the speakers, and rig up a way to switch between different potential caps ?

Go WITH your ears, and if a "crappy" mylar or electrolytic sounds better, go with it, because that is what your particular crossover "wants"

I think the loss of some caps was taken into account in the original crossover design.

Go to a low loss caps in my experience, on many speakers, and the sound will change, but not always for the better!

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that's sensible advice - in some cases as hearing and perception vary I'd assume the change to less lossy might be perceived as: "better" or "its fixed/upgraded" - other times it could be taken as "strident" - "somethings changed" and exacerbate emotional stress within the audiophile type as the change is perceived as worse sounding overall plus money & time have been spent to achieve the new condition of dissatisfaction.

I had an old Fisher amp with what I'd assume were horrible coupling capacitors but loved their coloration on Joe Pass cds - it was liquid and relaxing. I've changed power supply caps on a Traynor guitar amp and didn't like the new tone as much. (there was advice to put a tiny inductor in series with the new electrolytic cap to help it emulate the old cap - maybe a resistor could do..)

When dealing with vintage Klipsch speakers - what dielectric capacitors were used in the first place at what times and where are acceptable examples today of equivalents to restore that sound? Are modern ASC motor run good enough for replacement? - are those in general worse in quallity and tolerance than the original motor run caps?

Do all caps which measure the same in ESR sound the same in crossover network application? There must be examples of low ESR capacitors at cheap prices Can a good modern cap completely emulate the paper in oil and higher ESR types in tone by the addition of a small resistance? Perhaps the crossover experts on these forums can give practical answers.

these are what I"m going to try - they (in 2uF & 6.8uF) fit 40mm cap clamps, tolerance is tight, & they have copper leads

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Also select caps with a higher voltage rating when offered a choice?

Not so sure about this anymore ?

The thicker dielectric may have higher ESR I was told.

Best way is to try Many caps, see what one sounds best, with crossover removed if need be for easy access.

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that's sensible advice - in some cases as hearing and perception vary I'd assume the change to less lossy might be perceived as: "better" or "its fixed/upgraded" - other times it could be taken as "strident" - "somethings changed" and exacerbate emotional stress within the audiophile type as the change is perceived as worse sounding overall plus money & time have been spent to achieve the new condition of dissatisfaction.

I had an old Fisher amp with what I'd assume were horrible coupling capacitors but loved their coloration on Joe Pass cds - it was liquid and relaxing. I've changed power supply caps on a Traynor guitar amp and didn't like the new tone as much. (there was advice to put a tiny inductor in series with the new electrolytic cap to help it emulate the old cap - maybe a resistor could do..)

When dealing with vintage Klipsch speakers - what dielectric capacitors were used in the first place at what times and where are acceptable examples today of equivalents to restore that sound? Are modern ASC motor run good enough for replacement? - are those in general worse in quallity and tolerance than the original motor run caps?

Do all caps which measure the same in ESR sound the same in crossover network application? There must be examples of low ESR capacitors at cheap prices Can a good modern cap completely emulate the paper in oil and higher ESR types in tone by the addition of a small resistance? Perhaps the crossover experts on these forums can give practical answers.

these are what I"m going to try - they fit 40mm cap clamps, tolerance is tight, & they have copper leads

Obbligato-pio-caps-04-200.jpg

Freddy, it all depends on the speaker ?

LOW ESR in my experiences is not always a good thing, unless the original crossover HAD a low ESR cap to begin with.

My experiences with low ESR caps is tey work great, on speakers like old advents and old AR and KLH.

These speakers were dull sounding to me, and the lower ESR Cap seems to brighten them up.

But many Horns, Klipsch in particular, I find right on the edge, or just plain bright!

A low ESR cap makes them WORSE, IMHO

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I'm going to try the Obbligato oily caps only in Type AA Klipschorn and probably Heresy I - I don't have a real ESR meter so can't determine that parameter - -- they may end up bright but I trust Tony Gee's review of saying these caps have an "analogue" sound, so may not bite as bad as possible.

Assuming Bennic & Erse can achieve very low ESR - why are boutique priced capacitors considered by many as "better sounding"? - imagination? - or something that's not easily quantified/measured? On Germany's Ebay I see custom crossovers for Klipsch speakers built out of KBG paper in oil capacitors :^)

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You see, many times the original caps ESR was taken into consideration, and swapping to a lower ESR, less lossy cap aint always better.

As far as Khorn xovers, the Type As I have seen have all bathtub type film and foil oil-filled caps, and most Type AAs use motor start caps, which are all NP electrolytics AFAIK. All other parts are identical, so I don't think cap type or ESR was a design consideration here. Other models' xovers could be different, however.

As an aside, a friend recently got a set of corner horns going with my old Type A crossovers. They sound great with the original caps over 40 years old, so I did not even recommend a cap change in his case!

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On Germany's Ebay I see custom crossovers for Klipsch speakers built out of KBG paper in oil capacitors :^)

I have NO doubt the Paper in Oil caps will sound good in Bright Klipsch Speakers, where efficiency is "God" and a deviation from Flat for 1/2 db gain in efficincy is acceptable.

Many Paper in Oil caps have high ESR/Loss, and so may Tame the overly bright Horns ?

I think the sound of capacitors is no mystery, and I would like to see evidence where two caps that measure EXACTLY the same in ALL electrical parameters sound any different.

In some older Infinity speakers with EMIT tweeters working properly, I rigged the crossovers outboard, and tried many tweeter caps.

Not suprisingly, a Bennic Electrolytic beat several highly regarded poly caps, a Mylar, and some vintage paper in oils I won cheap off of Ebay.

I say not suprisingly,because that was what the crossover "wanted" for my room, equipment, and my tastes.

I absolutely HATE, and I do mean HATE brightness and stridency.

Be a little muffled, or a tad veiled, but DONT make a mistake on brightness!

I listen for hours at a time some evenings, just do not want Brightness.

I wonder why Klipsch used motor run caps on some speakers Freddy ?

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I found this on the DIY Audio Forum Freddy.

Quote:
Originally posted by theAnonymous1
Is there any difference between these caps and standard polypropylene films when used with low level signals?


Thanks to the oil they are very well damped and quite resistant to overvoltage and silly discharge currents.

In general motor run caps are quite good for audio but certainly require a smaller value bypass. I have some doubts about the quality of termination

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(I'd assume motor "run" would be film or paper dielectic and most motor "start" electolytic -?) - they were probably considered dependable, no external leads to break off, mouse proof (will mice eat mylar?) and possibly a better deal than dry mylar wrapped variety? - I don't know - it would be nice for a Klipsch historian to explain PWK's creations.

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You see, many times the original caps ESR was taken into consideration, and swapping to a lower ESR, less lossy cap aint always better.

As far as Khorn xovers, the Type As I have seen have all bathtub type film and foil oil-filled caps, and most Type AAs use motor start caps, which are all NP electrolytics AFAIK. All other parts are identical, so I don't think cap type or ESR was a design consideration here. Other models' xovers could be different, however.

As an aside, a friend recently got a set of corner horns going with my old Type A crossovers. They sound great with the original caps over 40 years old, so I did not even recommend a cap change in his case!

Yeah, if it aint broke, dont fix it!

Are the type A and type AA crossovers identical, except for the cap type, same slopes, cross frequency, etc ?

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More stuff about changing capacitors I found

http://www.garbz.com/blog/articles/botique.html

Effect

This result translates directly to the output of the circuit. Through careful analysis a value for ESR should be chosen so that the solution to the characteristic equation has only a single root. This response will be critically damped or and dampening factor of 0.5. The result is the fastest return to steady state with minimal overshoot.

While these examples have been exhadurated to more easily graph the results and aid in circuit analysis, these resonances do occur within the audio band. Blindly reducing the ESR of capacitors by replacing generic capacitors with "audiophile grade" caps can cause this problem

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ESR is the measurement of everything bad about a capacitor like poor connections inside between the wire lead and the foil or contaminated dielectric material. There is never a time you should want high ESR. You could taylor the sound using poor quality caps, but why do that? You want pure capacitance inside crossover caps and nothing else. If you want to EQ the sound, do it purely with an equalizer or a tone control, not with bad, and uncontrollable qualities of a cap.

Bob Crites

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might one paraphrase BEC's comment to include changing/swapping amplifiers and dacs as $$$ EQ?

can one take a competent low priced push-pull solid state amp and add "something in series" (LCR/whatever) before and/or after it to emulate push pull tube, single ended triode and FET amps thus saving a pile of $?

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There is never a time you should want high ESR. You could taylor the sound using poor quality caps, but why do that? You want pure capacitance inside crossover caps and nothing else. If you want to EQ the sound, do it purely with an equalizer or a tone control, not with bad, and uncontrollable qualities of a cap.

Bob Crites

When you replace a stock Klipsch Capacitor that is not bad with a lower ESR Cap, Tailoring the sound is exactly what you are doing.

You are HOPING that the lower ESR Cap will sound "better", you are gambling, plain and simple.

If the crossover was designed for, and used a stock, higher ESR Cap, in effect you are saying you know more then the Klipsch engineers, by substituting another circuit changing lower ESR cap.

You may LIKE the change, and IME, it will usually be for the Brighter.

Old Vintage Paper In Oil, high ESR Caps, Horn audiophiles swear by them, NOW, I know why !

Sometimes lossy, high ESR caps are WHAT you want, just the thing to tame a bright, shrill horn!

Some audiophiles dont use EQ or tone controls, preferring passive methods of EQ

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In summation..... It's what you, the listener, likes. To each their own, in this instance, many prefer the change from the old paper/oil. I really do like paper/oil, and as BEC will attest, have been looking for several years for a quality paper/oil replacement for my A's AA's, B's, E's, etc. Just are not made anymore. Shame.

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There is never a time you should want high ESR. You could taylor the sound using poor quality caps, but why do that? You want pure capacitance inside crossover caps and nothing else. If you want to EQ the sound, do it purely with an equalizer or a tone control, not with bad, and uncontrollable qualities of a cap.

Bob Crites

When you replace a stock Klipsch Capacitor that is not bad with a lower ESR Cap, Tailoring the sound is exactly what you are doing.

You are HOPING that the lower ESR Cap will sound "better", you are gambling, plain and simple.

If the crossover was designed for, and used a stock, higher ESR Cap, in effect you are saying you know more then the Klipsch engineers, by substituting another circuit changing lower ESR cap.

You may LIKE the change, and IME, it will usually be for the Brighter.

Old Vintage Paper In Oil, high ESR Caps, Horn audiophiles swear by them, NOW, I know why !

Sometimes lossy, high ESR caps are WHAT you want, just the thing to tame a bright, shrill horn!

Some audiophiles dont use EQ or tone controls, preferring passive methods of EQ

But, you are assuming that PWK wanted caps with high ESR originally. This is not the case. In fact he said that he wanted low ESR and said that he got in trouble once for not having ESR low enough in his caps.

ESR is the sum of all things about a cap that are not capacitance. Might be inductance, resistance, absorption or in fact anything that alters the signal other than capacitance. No one intends to build a cap with high ESR. Some manufacturers are just better than others at minimizing the errors that cause a cap to have high ESR or they use better materials that result in lower ESR. Wanting higher ESR in the caps makes about as much sense as adding sand to the crankcase of your car hoping that makes the ride smoother. That might work, but there are more logical ways to approach the problem. New shocks, perhaps.

Bob Crites

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There is never a time you should want high ESR. You could taylor the sound using poor quality caps, but why do that? You want pure capacitance inside crossover caps and nothing else. If you want to EQ the sound, do it purely with an equalizer or a tone control, not with bad, and uncontrollable qualities of a cap.

Bob Crites

When you replace a stock Klipsch Capacitor that is not bad with a lower ESR Cap, Tailoring the sound is exactly what you are doing.

You are HOPING that the lower ESR Cap will sound "better", you are gambling, plain and simple.

If the crossover was designed for, and used a stock, higher ESR Cap, in effect you are saying you know more then the Klipsch engineers, by substituting another circuit changing lower ESR cap.

You may LIKE the change, and IME, it will usually be for the Brighter.

Old Vintage Paper In Oil, high ESR Caps, Horn audiophiles swear by them, NOW, I know why !

Sometimes lossy, high ESR caps are WHAT you want, just the thing to tame a bright, shrill horn!

Some audiophiles dont use EQ or tone controls, preferring passive methods of EQ

But, you are assuming that PWK wanted caps with high ESR originally. This is not the case. In fact he said that he wanted low ESR and said that he got in trouble once for not having ESR low enough in his caps.

Bob Crites

WE can all debate what PWK said, but actions speak louder then words.

IF PWK "wanted" low ESR Caps, then WTF are MYLAR caps doing in both the Klipsch Cornwall 2's and the Klipsch Epic CF 4''s ?

PWK was alive in 1987 when my speakers were made, his signature is on the Tag inside my Cornwall II's !

And where do we read that PWK wanted low ESR at, and if so, why did he use high ESR motor run caps ?

Let me see the "hope from dope" where he made this statement please ?

Because IF he made it, he sure don't practice what he preached, by the amount of mylar and other high ESR caps stuck in his speakers ?

I say, dont preach me a sermon, show me a sermon, if you talk the talk, walk the walk.

And even IF PWK said to use low ESR Caps, thats fine.

I prefer a more mellow, laid back, less foreward type of sound, more audiophile like, then a pro sound voice.

PWK is not wrong, and neither am I, it is merely the type of sound you prefer.

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SNAP...love the sound of a trap snapping shut.

First of all, I expect those Mylar caps were not to bad for ESR back when they were new. Bet they stayed good through the warranty period. Now they are over 20 years old.

Second, I have never found a motor run cap or a paper in oil cap in a Klipsch crossover. Some of those from the 50s might have been PIO because in those days, not much else was available. There would not be anything wrong with a motor run cap if made right. Just never saw Klipsch use them. The oil filled caps I have seen in Klipsch crossovers are film and foil in oil but way to low in working voltage to be motor start or motor run. Bet those tested really good for ESR when new.

You can prefer any sound you want. But remember that is you. What I prefer or you prefer has nothing to do with what is right. Right is to reproduce the sound fed to the speaker as closely as possible. Your preference then (or my preference) has absolutely nothing to do with that. That is what tone controls and equalizers are for. Those things let you make the speaker sound like you want it to even if that sound is not faithful to the reproduction. I am fortunate that a flat frequency response sounds right to me, so I don't have to mess with stuff to get some elusive sound that works for me.

Anyway, here is the reference you wanted. I believe that freddyi is here with us in this thread.

post-9312-13819538496354_thumb.jpg

post-9312-1381955379146_thumb.jpg

post-9312-13819566697244_thumb.jpg

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