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Crites midrange diaphragms


troutboy

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I installed them in my Forte IIs last Friday. To my ears voices seem more realistic. I have to say that I did notice a more audible difference with the titanium tweeter diaphragms than with the midrange diaphragms. I'd love to have a pair of titanium midrange diaphragms though.

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Anybody tried the Bob Crites midrange upgrade diaphragms yet? I would be interested in your feedback if you have.

I have been using Bobs tweeters for some time now and the Midranges for a couple of weeks.

I think what your going to hear may be system dependent.

I use outboard networks for my Forte's pictured here

sd530071edited.jpg

I use a Duelund Copper VSF coupled to Bob's Larger Autotransformers which are connected in the large black box with the green terminal post. The coupling caps are some of the worlds best IMO and are 4x more money than Bob's new mids, but IMO Bob's mids are just as signifcant subjectively as the Duelund caps are. Bob spent 2 yrs developing these, and I hear his efforts.

My system is a simple one with CDP direct to my SET Amplifiers. After about 5-10hrs Bob's new mids started showing their stuff, I find them awfully smooth and very detailed, I believe as Bob says, these do not have bounce back at higher frequencies which make for harshness. Piano is just phenomenal with more meat and potatoes to the sound without being hard. They hold together better under more complex material under high spl conditions.

Simply put they are World Class IMO.

I am currently doing a comparison of my modified Fortes to stock Fortes here

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=25
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I installed the titanium tweeters in both sets of my speakers and so far i like them. Are the midrange replacement diaphragms titanium? I didn't get that impression from the limited info available on the Crites website.

No, they are phenlolic like the stock diaphragms. He said he's attempted a couple titanium midrange diaphragms but I believe "dismal failure" was the term he used. Hopefully they'll be available some day!

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I just installed them along with the titanium tweeter diaphragm. My forte II's were damaged so I can't give a comparison to properly working stock. They look identical in every way to stock to me, but I think I read somewhere that Crites says they measure better than the original.

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Well, bit the bullet and have the first set in my KLF-20's playing them quite a bit to see if they improve with time like the titanium tweeter diaphragms did. Ordered the set for the Cornwall II's this morning, so early next week should have both in place.

You guys were supposed to talk me out of this and keep me from buying them!! It is now forbidden for any of you to mention the word crossover and upgrade to me in the same sentence....

All joking aside, thanks guys for the excellent input and each of you for your replies.

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I have probably 40-50hrs on them and they are absolutely stunning, I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp) but he said he sure liked what he was hearing and was one of the best Klipsch's he'd ever heard.

The new mids took a while to break-in and bloom but when they did they created some of the most phenomenal sound I have ever heard in my 36 yrs of high end audio.

The first cuts I played for him were from Jenifer Warn's CD Hunter cut 10 and cut 1 which he described simply as just huge. And when he says huge he means that the imaging just blew well past my 18ft wide side walls speakers are just 9 ft apart.

Our last cut of the night was Cassandra Wilson's Belly of the Sun CD cut 8 Wichita Lineman the dynamics of everything in the recording just floored me but the thing that stood out most was the recordings harmonics which were so extensively full and with beautiful decays that they just took my breath away.

So I'm just blown away by what Bob has developed with these new midrange diaphragms.

Thank You Bob Crites!

SET12

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I got to leave work a little before lunch yesterday, so i have run my system almost continuously since i got home. You can start to hear some subtle differences as they get a little time on them. The big difference came when i switched over to the tube integrated and ran a cd changer with an external DAC. I really didn't care for contemporary jazz on the system, but i put on Larry Carlton's Discovery cd and it raised my eyebrows how good it sounded. The acoustic guitar sound was impressive. Biggest difference i have heard so far is in the upper bass-lower mid frequencies. Bass seems to be a lot tighter and defined. Will definitely run it all the time i am home over the weekend to see how much improvement it gets. The classic jazz stuff i normally listen to seems to be a little dark sounding right now, but hopefully that will improve with time.

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I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp)

SET12

That sentence says alot to me. Personally, I like Klipsch and the way they sound alot. I'm sure there is improving on the sound with better parts but to not be a fan of Klipsch except for one thing or another is just not where I stand or probably 90% of the people here.

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I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp)

SET12

That sentence says a lot to me. Personally, I like Klipsch and the way they sound a lot. I'm sure there is improving on the sound with better parts but to not be a fan of Klipsch except for one thing or another is just not where I stand or probably 90% of the people here.

Up until a dozen yrs ago I was never interested in Klipsch, they just didn't do much for me at all. Then I built a transmitting tube amplifier and I needed something efficient so I borrowed a pair of Forte's and found that there was some magic here with them! I still wanted more performance, so I ran into ALK's work through a buddy as I heard a dramatic transformation of his LaScala's. I knew that I basically liked the Fortes but I needed more information from them. So I built a pair of outboard networks to be able to swap parts out in minutes so I could find the best components to my taste. And I have to a very large extent!

The fact is for myself after being where I am today with these networks I am not likely to ever be satisfied with the stock components and this is probably so for most speakers Klipsch or others.

I'm glad your satisfied and others as well but as it is there are many people on this forum that have done some modifications to there networks in one form or another.

Mine are certainly an extreme but I'm after extreme performance and this is what it took. It would of been easy for me to spend $10,000 even on a simple Forte Network but I spent $2,000 and the performance out of the Forte is easily equal to a $10,000 or more commercial product today. I know its hard to believe and that person I had here was impressed and its just what it took for him.

For me just having the name Klipsch associated to what he heard was very meaningful regardless whether modified or not.

Networks are for me one of the last undiscovered areas of improving a system, they seem like they are just taken for granted. That maybe fine for some but its not for me. There are many fine replacement networks from Bob Crites or ALK or even DeanG, but the components I have used here go well beyond the average network upgrade or simple back to factory spec's. The difference isn't subtle it is profoundly better, Steen Duelund often had more money tied up in his networks than the cost of the drivers themselves! and I can now understand why!

Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest.

SET12

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I had some company last night and the man said he never was a fan of Klipsch to speak of (neither was I till I started working with them with a SET amp)

SET12

That sentence says a lot to me. Personally, I like Klipsch and the way they sound a lot. I'm sure there is improving on the sound with better parts but to not be a fan of Klipsch except for one thing or another is just not where I stand or probably 90% of the people here.

Up until a dozen yrs ago I was never interested in Klipsch, they just didn't do much for me at all. Then I built a transmitting tube amplifier and I needed something efficient so I borrowed a pair of Forte's and found that there was some magic here with them! I still wanted more performance, so I ran into ALK's work through a buddy as I heard a dramatic transformation of his LaScala's. I knew that I basically liked the Fortes but I needed more information from them. So I built a pair of outboard networks to be able to swap parts out in minutes so I could find the best components to my taste. And I have to a very large extent!

If you follow other forums around the net you will find most folks going to the extremes you are actually building their own speakers as well in search of that perfect sound.

The fact is for myself after being where I am today with these networks I am not likely to ever be satisfied with the stock components and this is probably so for most speakers Klipsch or others.

I'm glad your satisfied and others as well but as it is there are many people on this forum that have done some modifications to there networks in one form or another.

I'm satisfied with my Klipsch speakers. I would wager to bet that out of the 40,000 users and probably another 20,000 lurkers on the forum probably only 30-40 actually have modified networks. I believe most of the folks are getting there networks back to factory spec. Maybe they are using a better cap here and there but still basically a stock network. Unless I am misunderstanding I believe Bob is returning the crossovers back to factory specs as well.

I just think most people buy Klipsch speakers because they like them and they like the way they sound. I don't think the majority of folks are going to spend another 2,000 in network upgrades just to get the sound they are looking for. They will end up shopping longer for the speaker that fits their needs.

Mine are certainly an extreme but I'm after extreme performance and this is what it took. It would of been easy for me to spend $10,000 even on a simple Forte Network but I spent $2,000 and the performance out of the Forte is easily equal to a $10,000 or more commercial product today. I know its hard to believe and that person I had here was impressed and its just what it took for him.

It would be hard for me to believe that your Forte's can outclass a Klipschorn or a Jubilee. I am not saying that to insult your speakers in anyway.

For me just having the name Klipsch associated to what he heard was very meaningful regardless whether modified or not.

Networks are for me one of the last undiscovered areas of improving a system, they seem like they are just taken for granted. That maybe fine for some but its not for me. There are many fine replacement networks from Bob Crites or ALK or even DeanG, but the components I have used here go well beyond the average network upgrade or simple back to factory spec's. The difference isn't subtle it is profoundly better, Steen Duelund often had more money tied up in his networks than the cost of the drivers themselvesI and I can now understand why!

I would imagine your upgraded speakers sound fantastic. Do you use exotic speaker wires and interconnects as well?

Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest.

Thanks for the offer.

SET12

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If you follow other forums around the net you will find most folks going to the extremes you are actually building their own speakers as well in search of that perfect sound.

Yes that's very true, But its not as easy as one may think. I recently did purchase some very good software for measurements and design. Which will be of some aid in future evaluations.

I also have a pair of two-ways with expensive drivers with a computer designed network that my very best friend designed for me. But you can imagine his disappointment when I had to tell him he wasn't even close to these Modified Fortes and now with the new mids and other mods they are even further away from competing with these. The two ways have a pair of 8in powerful woofers with a small horn.He told me how the woofers respond out to 5000hz so there should be very responsive in the mids and so on. But in truth to my ears the midrange was very flat dynamically and the harmonic content rather void with very poor decays. Not even close to these Fortes mids. He has been designing speakers for nearly 40yrs and is one of the most intelligent people I know! He even has a nephew with an IQ of 190. But subjectively his design misses the boat for me. Information without being analytical or harsh is a tough order. While he used good parts they were nowhere near the subjective performance of the parts I use. And I just didn't throw these together and say look there see what I got, I worked hard at getting where I am. I'm set up so that I can evaluate the parts in my system. While some did not work for me I do believe they can work in other combination's. I am also fortunate to belong to a local Audio Club that has members with yrs of experience that I can pull from along with a good friend with thousands of hrs of symphony and jazz live performances and I believe he tells me like it is. I know he does cause I designed Phono Stages that didn't cut the mustard for him and he told me so!

The main thing is I'm not a speaker designer to speak of, I design amplifiers. I just don't have the time to dive into raw speaker design nor do I have the funds for it. I just took these Fortes and ran with what I liked about them and extended their performance envelope to a very large degree.

I'm satisfied with my Klipsch speakers. I would wager to bet that out of the 40,000 users and probably another 20,000 lurkers on the forum probably only 30-40 actually have modified networks. I believe most of the folks are getting there networks back to factory spec. Maybe they are using a better cap here and there but still basically a stock network. Unless I am misunderstanding I believe Bob is returning the crossovers back to factory specs as well.

I think it maybe more than that but I could be wrong. But if that's the case, wow, what they are missing..........

I have talked to a few that have even gone further and than I have. And they have the same kind of enthusiasm as I have.

I just think most people buy Klipsch speakers because they like them and they like the way they sound. I don't think the majority of folks are going to spend another 2,000 in network upgrades just to get the sound they are looking for. They will end up shopping longer for the speaker that fits their needs.

Oh, I don't doubt this for one minute! and they will spend thousands to indeed. But in this day and age where workers are losing as much as 50% of their income such as myself where I am now earning what I earned in the 1980's its hardly affordable to do that. So should I not go after this level of performance because I can't afford it I don't think so! DIYing it was once said that for every dollar spent it is possible to get a 10x return in commercial performance and even a 5x is a major return. Do I feel I have such performance? Easily.

It would be hard for me to believe that your Forte's can outclass a Klipschorn or a Jubilee. I am not saying that to insult your speakers in anyway.

Oh, No insult taken,

I would work with a LaScala or a Cornwall before a Khorn myself for my needs.

A stock Forte won't outclass a Khorn and I haven't heard one in awhile and I don't care for them myself, or likely the Jubilee for that matter even though I haven't heard a Jubilee but anything is possible, I do have some reservations about the Jubilee though. Just as many people have reservations on the new P39F's which I have heard. I can tell you I think the P39F is some stunning engineering. While I'll say the Fortes are not perfect in any absolute sense of subjectively; Do I think they can hold their own with a P39F? Hard to believe and hearing is believing but yes.

As to a Khorn or the Jubilee while they probably use excellent measured passive components I sincerely doubt they are anywhere near the subjective performance of of like a Duelund Copper VSF Cap or even Duelund's Copper Cast caps let alone Duelunds resistors that were so far ahead subjectively that I never felt the need to put back what I thought was some very good Ohmites.

I will tell you its hard for me to see the Khorn or the jubilee competing with the delicacy and harmonics that are had by these modifications. Their passive parts subjective quality are not likely anywhere near these. While they may measure well it doesn't guarantee a subjective thumbs up. And while the stock Forte networks are just all over the place for phase response as ALK's tests showed the subjective listening with these passive parts I used are just in another level of subjective satisfaction that is no subtlety at all.

But these are not the only performance had from the mods, The dynamic envelope is just monstrous, After a friend of mine and I where listening to his stock Forte's we went back to the modified and were blown away at how much more louder the peaks were. The stock Fortes were severely compressed sounding in contrast. Again nothing subtle about this. So do I dare think they can dynamically compete with the mighty Khorn? I'm sorry to say more than likely yes. Maybe not in an absolute SPL level attained but in a given range of both speakers yes.

I would imagine your upgraded speakers sound fantastic. Do you use exotic speaker wires and interconnects as well?

Yes, They are and I have owned a lot of speakers and some pretty exoctic Like Acoustat MonitorX's with Direct Coupled Tube Amps. The Acoustats could deliver impacts that where felt in the chest but beyongd that No match for the modified Forte in the mids and top end and nieghter in sheer size. Those speakers were $5000 in 1980. And not that the Forte has no punch, They do indeed are capable of a wall impact enough to feel it in the seat of my pants on a heavy leather sofa.

Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest or for that matter anywhere!

I have some Klipsch owners from the Chicago area coming up here in a couple of weeks, It will be interesting for them as one is very interested in investing in his Cornwalls, in a similar manner. But I told him he should here these for himself, just don't take my word for it. Its nice to be able to hear something like this before you make a considerable investment. Myself I had a very profound hunch and I discovered the writings of George at North Creek, looked at his Bio and that convinced me to listen to him, All I can tell you is what he has said of Inductors in his FAQ's is very true from my listening experience of his products.

Do I think its worth a 10 hr drive? Only you could decide that. But you have to hear them to believe them or to totally discredit them and based on people that I have had here I find that it would be highly unlikely, and if anything a new awaking experience.

Do I use exotic wire? To a degree! I bought AudioQuest Midnight and AudioQuest Indigo along with AudioQuest Clear for pennies on the dollar. I prefer solid core wire as the sound does not change unlike stranded wire over time. And while the wire is a subtle difference in my opinion getting several subtle differences all together can yield a worth while improvement, its not as though I haven't heard some amazing wire such as FMS Zero which was one of the most amazing subjective experiences I ever had with wire and that was like $1200 for a 1 Meter Interconnect. While the speakers use AudioQuest my CDP direct uses an AR speaker brand that some yrs ago embarrassed some $500 high end interconnects, I have a pair of $500 interconnects as well but they are in the closet as I believe the AR's are doing a stunning job! And they where well under maybe $50 at the time. I'm not likely to spend vast sums when I can get peoples left overs to work at the level they do for me.

Thanks for the offer.

Not a problem.

Thank You For the Excellent Questions.

SET12

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Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest or for that matter anywhere!

If I'm ever going to be anywhere near Appleton,WI I would love to hear your Forte. I don't have the means to spend the money you've spent on anything other than my son's college fund so I'll just have to live vicariously through you!

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Anyone is welcome to hear them for themselves if they live in the Midwest or for that matter anywhere!

If I'm ever going to be anywhere near Appleton,WI I would love to hear your Forte. I don't have the means to spend the money you've spent on anything other than my son's college fund so I'll just have to live vicariously through you!

Well Thanks for the post, Your certainly welcome to hear them for yourself. Interestingly tonight I went out for some great live Jazz the name of the band is Jazz Orgy all very talented members.

http://www.jazzorgy.com/new/index.cgi

The one thing about the area I live in is it has great music, I also live close to Lawrence University which has one of the best music conservatories in the country. And the Band tonight feature a Professor and a graduate from Lawrence playing with the band tonight, They were hot! The drummer was one of the best I had ever heard and my friend Don told me he is one of the best in the midwest,and he was just awesome. My friend Don goes out for live music several times a week and once in awhile I have an opportunity to tag along and I not only listen but get to learn a few things about music as Don was a former Trombone player himself and has just an awesome sound system as well.

I had him read through these posts and asked him if what I wrote was way off, I had almost forgotten he was a former Khorn owner, his comment was he'd rather own these Forte's of mine then own a pair of Khorns, really I said! he then said Dan, those Fortes are so balanced with bass,mids and treble not standing out from one another and all equally just as dynamic, nothing is forward or recessed and there is tremendous detail with great authority. I asked if the authority was as great as a Khorn, he said no question about it yes. Those are some words coming from his listening experience which I have great respect for, he told me, you ought to be just ecstatic over your mods. I said I am.

One thing you can do is get a start, and slowly build, I think one can
attain comparable results with careful compromising.

The Forte maybe little and not have the attention that its bigger brothers have, but these Modified Fortes stand as big sonically IMO and my good friend Don's as its larger brothers.

SET12

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Just finished installing the second pair in the Cornwall II's and this pair seems to sound pretty decent right out of the box. Can't wait to see if they improve with a little play time like the ones in the KLF-20's. Still a little reserved and not really dynamic just yet, but still sound pretty good. Should be able to tell more in about 40 hrs or so of time on them.

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  • 8 months later...

Has anybody else tried the midrange diaphragms with extended burn in, besides SET and his overkill crossovers that sound good with anything hehe, i have them, although they sound good, i just wanna get a general consensus as to where everyone is with their impressions after a while, i remember them being way more laid back when i first put them in, smoother and better with vocals, and less bite, less height soundwise but im curious or ehrrmmm lazy, to see if anyones compared them with extended burn in 100hrs plus with the stock diaphgrams, otherwise you guys are gonna make me get off ma butt and put one of the stock diaphragms back into the one of the other ones to do a side by side comparison.

Anyways recently upgraded my hagermann bugle in the important spots with z-foil Vishay tx2575 resistors and LME49990 opamps on single to dual dip brown dog adapters, the resistors added a silky smoothness and the opamps added another league of detail over even the metal can LM4562 / 49720 opamps another popular national chip.

http://www.national.com/pf/LM/LME49990.html#Overview

Supertramp - Breakfast in America and Crime of the Century are incredibly holographic, and incredibly dynamic, need to upgrade the inter connects from the preamp to the receiver tho, cheapy costco interconnects, maybe ill go tube amping someday when i has more monies.

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