Bathroom light

[Coytee]

Scenario:

Downstairs bathroom. Has 3-way switch OUTSIDE the door (for niece in wheelchair) and has 3-way switch INSIDE the door. Switches are basically back to back.

I put the 3-way in. My brother in law (electrician) put the others in when the house was built.

When I put the 3-way in, I didn't have any 12-3 wire so I just added a 12g wire as the runner/chase or what ever you call that leg. Light switches worked 100% fine.

Bro in law saw it one day and said it was really outside of code since I had a single loose wire not sheathed (or something). No problem... now, I happened to have some 12-3 so I'll fix it.

Other night, I cut 18" of 12-3 and kill my breaker.

Oh, in case it matters. Power comes to ORIGINAL switchbox with 3-way in it. Black wire for light also comes to this box. The other 3-way switch is after this box. I say this, because I've seen other ways to wire it where the power comes to the first 3-way, wires go to the next 3-way and the LIGHT wires are coming out of the second 3-way, NOT the first which is my circumstance.

Ok... yank switch, put new wires in and reinstall OUTSIDE switch. Move to inside bathroom and get confused to which wire goes where (dark, dim flashlight) I deduce they must go here & here.... flip breaker (nothing). Ok, messed up. (kill breaker) they must go like this & this. (flip breaker) Now, the light comes on when the INSIDE switch is flipped but do nothing when the OUTSIDE switch is flipped. For all practical purposes, the outside switch doesn't exist.

hmm.... worked fine 20 minutes ago...

Go back to rewire the Inside switch.... black... red....little bit of white to white.... flip the breaker, walk back....flip the switch and "bzzzzzzt". Lights do NOT come on but switch sparks a single spark inside and of course, the breaker trips.

Clearly these two wires were crossed so I put them back.

Now, (flip breaker on).... I try the switch....nothing. (flip breaker off) look at it again.... maybeeeeeeeeeeeee the black wire for light goes here instead of the black for the other.... (flip breaker on) Nothing

Hmm.... how interesting would it be if my bulb burnt out and I was spinning my wheels? I pull bulb & check with meter.... circuit is good for bulb.

Getting annoyed AND tired since I was at this for 90 minutes... I figure let's shut it down. I don't want to leave wires out so, I totally yank the outside 3-way and remove the inside 3-way. I install a normal switch like used to be in there, prior to my upgrade to 3-ways.

(turn breaker on)

Nothing

What the heck?

Now, getting more determined than annoyed.... I turn breaker off. I remove the switch. This time, I'm going to take (carefully) the BARE wires and touch them.

(turn breaker on)

Come back...I have a single 12g wire (hot) and two 14g wires (split off hot) so I touch the 12g to one of the 14's...nothing. I touch it to the OTHER 14....nothing. I touch them all together.....nothing.

I have gone from a 100% working fine, 3-way switch to now, I can't even put all my blacks together and bypass the switch to make it work.

I am totally perplexed.

I'm about ready to make a pigtail wire that I can put into an extension cord, wire nut it to the black 14g wire to see if my feed wire is somehow dead.

I'm not going to. Instead...I'm heading to HD to buy one of those live wire testers. Don't know what they're called, but you put it to a wire and if the wire has juice, it's supposed to beep/light or something.

I have a sneaky suspicion

[jason str]

Do you have a multimeter for testing ?

Good to see you pulled the loose wire and replaced it with a 3 wire, you should not worry so much about the code issue but for you and your family's safety.

If you have no current at the switch you may have smoked something else in the circuit like another outlet or the breaker.

Most switches have basic schematics on the box but if you still have the brother in law handy and don't feel comfortable with diagnosis of the circuit i suggest you wait for help rather than risking everybody's life in the process.

[mike stehr]

You will probably have to chase the open wire out of the circuit. Is there a outlet in the circuit?

[Marvel]

Oh, in case it matters. Power comes to ORIGINAL switchbox with 3-way in it. Black wire for light also comes to this box. The other 3-way switch is after this box. I say this, because I've seen other ways to wire it where the power comes to the first 3-way, wires go to the next 3-way and the LIGHT wires are coming out of the second 3-way, NOT the first which is my circumstance.

Richard, I'm not quite sure I follow the scheme you are using. I have a great Black and Decker book on advanced wiring that has different wiring schemes (two three way switches and one lamp). I can scan a couple and send them to you or post them if you want.

Bruce

[jason str]

This may help if you if insist doing the job yourself.

http://www.electrical-online.com/extra-graphics/3wayswitch.htm

http://www.homeimprovementweb.com/information/how-to/three-way-switch.htm

[Marvel]

Thanks Jason, that means I don't have to scan anything... [Y]

[Bigdnfay1]

In my house all power for baths and kitchen are run thru a GFI. You may want to check them all(if you have them).

Big D

[Coytee]

Thanks for the input. Here's some more filler now that I've had more time to play around.

Yes, I do have a basic meter (RS type, with the needle indicator). Bruce, what I meant (not having read any of the attachments here), I saw a schematic online that said one way to wire this was bring the power to the first box/3-way. The power then goes to the second box/3-way. The power then leaves the second box in route to the light itself. Sort of a 1,2,3 situation. In my case, the power goes to the first box (because it did originally, prior to adding the other switch). The wires to the fixture ALSO go to the first box and NOT to the second box. The wires then go to the other switch. So, it's sort of like going 1,3,2 to keep that (poor) analogy.

here's what I did today: Bought one of those cigar sized circuit analizers that tells you if you have a hot wire or not. (keeps me from having to fry my tongue over & over [li][])

Some of the things I did:

1. Discovered my true hot wire is one of the 14g wires and not the 12g. I guess since it's on a 15 amp circuit that's ok. I simply presumed the heavy wire was the one bringing the load.

2. Using my meter, tested the hot wire and indeed, I DO have 120 volts coming to this box (though again, it's the 14g wire)

3. Using my meter, tested for continuity (power off, wires undone) from black lead in the switchbox to the black lead pigtail of the light (continuity is good). Tested same continuity for white wire, all is good. In other words, I checked continuity from wall switch to ceiling.

Among some other things which me being tired will prevent me from detailing.... here is what I thought was interesting and probably shed some light.

I should clarify that I lowered the ceiling sconce of this fixture so I had access to the leads and wire nuts. I removed the nuts but kept the wires together.

With the power back on, I put my tester (the circuit tester not the multimeter) to the black and of course, it beeped at me indicating hot wire. I put my meter across the black and the white. I got essentially zero reading although I did in fact, every now & then, seem to see a small bump in the needle. It might have been me simply moving my hands and that causing the needle's inertia to bounce. I then touched the meters other lead (keeping one on black/hot) to the ground and whammo, the needle jumped to 120 volts. So, hot to white was nothing and hot to ground was 120 volts.

This inferred to me that my white wire was probably loose and getting intermittent contact. Back to the switchbox I go.... nope.... the white lead is firmly interwoven with the feeder line white. hmm....

Now, I put the meter leads on the black in this switch box and the white in this switchbox. Same thing.... no real reading. Move over to the ground and viola, needle jumps.

I'm now beginning to think my white wire has loosened upstream somewhere. My presumption is in the panel box since I was in there just the other day shortening the leads on the 6-3 I installed (ran 6/3 to second panel box for basement wiring and dedicated stereo outlets (four 20 amp). I left 3 feet of slack until my brother in law could check everything. once he was happy, I trimmed the excess down.

Anyways....when I was shortening that 6/3 wire I had to yank out several breakers and now, I'm wondering if I loosened one/'more of the white/common leads that are in the panel box itself. Since that is the only place where there has been any action and that action was just this past weekend, it seems reasonable to me that I might look there.

I probably won't delve into that until this weekend.

Isn't this fun.....[*-)]

[Hypoxia]

I agree, the first place to look is always the last place the technician touched. [6]

[gaspr]

Yup, sounds like you have lost your neutral(common) wire somewhwere...shouldn't be to hard to trace if the problem is at the panel. I do have a question though. Is the switch box inside the bathroom a single gang box and if so, how deep is it? If it is a single gang, you may have too many wires in there as far as code is concerned...if it is possible, you might want to move either of the 2 wire cables to the outside switch box...

[jason str]

Hiding wire ends behind the wall is a no no.

[gaspr]

So Coytee....did you ever get this figured out? Just curious...

[Coytee]

Nope, not yet. I've tried to get my brother in law over (electrician who wired the place initially) but we've gone in circles with when we can get together.

I have poked my nose around a bit further though... I agree about the disconnected/loose neutral wire somewhere. Seems it is good from the switchbox to the light and back to the switch box. This is unfortunate because it's harder to trace after here.

I did however, notice a wire going UP the wall, implying its use upstairs. I went to all my outlets upstairs (main floor) with a circuit tester. I could not find something nice & easy, so I grabbed my wifes coffee maker and used it as my circuit tester []. I plugged it into each outlet....if the clock blinked 12:00 then I knew I had power....if the clock didn't work, then no power.

I in fact, found an offending outlet upstairs that has no power. Now, I need to figure out does the power go to the outlet first or to the problem downstairs first.

My (very poor) memory says, my brother in law has some kind of tool where I can (I think) kill all the power in the house. Clip this tool around a wire and go to my panel box with another matched tool. The first one, sends/creates some kind of signal on the wire that the second part picks up and this allows you to trace which wire goes where or something like that?

I don't know if I remember that correctly. What I really do know is, this is starting to get a little out of my league. I can change a light... change a switch. Heck... I've wired most of my basement to my secondary distribution panel (subject to my bro in law checking it) and have done those things right. Tracing down a hidden problem though.... a little beyond my tools and skillset.

Fortunately, this bathroom has two other unrelated circuits going to it. I have two vanity lights, shower light as well as another light in the closet above washer/dryer so we can get by for while without the main light working, until my BIL can make it by. (he lives in a nearby town)

[Coytee]

I do have a question though. Is the switch box inside the bathroom a single gang box and if so, how deep is it? If it is a single gang, you may have too many wires in there as far as code is concerned...if it is possible, you might want to move either of the 2 wire cables to the outside switch box...

If memory serves me, the following go into/out of this box. (which I think is 3" deep, single gang for a single switch)

1-14/2 w/g which is my hot input
1-14/2 w/g which probably goes to my light
1-12/2 w/g which is currently a mystery (although I might have this one mixed up with the above 14g that I think goes to light...been several days since I've looked)

I also have a 12/3 w/g wire going in here which is to use with the 3-way switch and take the power literally, to the other side of the wall (other switchbox is on the opposite side of stud on outside of bathroom).

The 12/3 wire is my dealing, not my brother in law... if that is crowding this box, I could easily move one/more of these wires across the stud to the other box and balance out the wires.

Regarding the wires terminated behind the drywall.... that has bugged me forever. I don't know if that was originally intended to be a wall light and my wife changed the game on him, wanting a ceiling light or, if it was some kind of screwup. We did have an electrical inspector out when this was all done, I even talked to him on phone while he was doing his job. I've always presumed that to be ok, even though it bugs me. Today, I do not know any way around it other than simply cutting a hole and putting a cover over said hole. (that won't go over very well with wife)

[gaspr]

In a 3x2x3 in. deep single gang switch box, the code book I use says that you are allowed to have 8 #14 gauge wires (not including bare copper wires) and 1 wire cap...or 7 wires/3caps...or 6 wires/5 caps. Using #12 wire, the combos are 6/1, 5/2, 5/3, 4/4, 4/5... so you are likely over the limit and should move the 14/2 light wire to the outside switch box.

I would guess that your missing neutral can be found in the dead plug receptacle upstairs...remove the outer cover and use your volt meter to check for power between the smaller vertical slot(hot wire) and the metal box...if you have voltage there, there is probably a loose neutral inside there somewhere...

[ace168516]

Without reading all of the testing methods that have been outlined here...I will only offer a little bit of advice on house wiring. Unless you did it yourself, do not assume it is right or even up to code. The 3 way light wires in my house are so wrong and so messed up one could not even imagine the schematic I have tried to map. I have 12/3s split with the hot wire controlling two sets of lights. I have found switches on grounds in my entry way...that gets a master switch and a pair of slave switches. I have done some rigged re-wiring as well...but I also have a drawing on the box sealed in plastic for any future residents...so they can see what I did and why.

[jason str]

The extra mystery wire may have been installed for a fart fan or bathroom heater, 12 gauge would not have been used for just a light unless the contractor ran out of 14 gauge.

If you are having trouble with too many wires in the box now is the perfect time to install a larger box.

Codes around here change from county to county so it would be hard to say what is legal and what is not around your neck of the woods.

If you do want to get rid of the extra switch in the hall and want it to look good just remove the box and extra wires and cut a piece of drywall to match your hole. then run some 1x2's or similar behind the opening and screw them the old drywall for support so your new drywall piece has something to attach to then just tape and mud the new drywall piece to the old opening and presto, nobody will ever know there was a switch there.

[Coytee]

Ok, here's the rest of the story.

My brother in law finally got a chance to come by today.

I'll give you the short story.

we ended up checking out two of the outlets upstairs, both were fine. I didn't even realize there was a second outlet on this circuit, just the first.

He then started tracing the path of the wire. Fortunately, the basement was originally all on a single circuit. This circuit comprised the two outlets upstairs, downstairs light...and the bathroom light. It was SORT of easy for him to follow the path. The good thing is, most everything was working so he could rule out parts of the wire paths.

He ended up going to my little HT closet as I have an outlet in there. As it turns out, this was very fortunate to have happened.

If you recall, the ONLY thing I was originally trying to do was replace my 12/2 wg wires (with a third wire scabbed on as my chaser) with a single 12/3 wg wire. That was the only reason I was doing this.....to put that stupid third wire inside the casing.

During that... the switch didn't work so I fooled around (while tired) and ended up cross wiring something in the switch and when I flipped it, it had a small arc and blew the breaker.

Seems that was enough to fry the switch itself as the switch doesn't work. Regardless of how many times I tried to creativly re-wire it... I was going to get nothing.

Now... to add insult to injury, the hot wire that actually feeds this box, comes from the little outlet that is in my HT closet.

John got to suspecting that outlet box... went over and undid it. don't you know.... the white/neutral wire inside of there was loose. It had worked its way out of the wire nut and had some burn marks on the bottom of it where it must have been making intermittent contact.

This outlet that I'm speaking of, has been the ONLY SINGLE outlet we've had in the entire basement for years, so I had one of those square 6 outlets plugged into it so I'd have room for a shopvac and something else (and something else, and something else and something else)

This 6 outlet is one of those that plugs in and has the center screw so it locks to the outlet. I don't think I ever tightened that center screw. I have many times, had to push that back into the outlet and make it tight. It is probably this repeated pushing & messing with this multiplug thing, that has helped to work this wire loose.

So, I really had two issues that were going agasint me. The neutral had slipped out in this other location AND I had a fried switch.

Fortunately, I had another 3-way switch in my pile of stuff so I simply grabbed it and now, everything is working properly!

We even pulled that box loose that was on the hidden side of the drywall. Now I can poke a hole there and Rotozip an opening to put a blank cover there (after reinstalling the box)

[gaspr]

Glad you got it fixed up....here's to brothers in law...

[Coytee]

here's to brothers in law...

I agree

He was at his fathers (2 doors down) and called me. While yacking, I told him I had brought some 10/3 wg wire home that I had. He had an interest in it. About 65 feet worth.

He asked how much I wanted for it... I said either $1.00 or perhaps some help fixing this problem (that I'm sure he had totally forgotten about).

He was over within 10 minutes and had it fixed within the hour.

I think I'll have another...