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sub experts opinion needed


InVeNtOr

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Don't knock it till you try it.

I'm not knocking your sub. I don't disparage anyone's equipment. I took issue with your statement that the direct radiating sub design is inherently distorted. I haven't read anything to back up your claim yet. I'm certainly open to the possibility of my being wrong, it wouldn't be the first time. I enjoy learning about subwoofer theory. When someone makes a statement such as yours, I'd enjoy reading the facts behind the statement.

Lots of information available all over the internet on horn loaded drivers and the facts, most if not all state that horn loading reduces distortion.

Is this not one of the reasons klipsch uses horn loaded drivers in many of the designs ? Correct me if im wrong but this was my understanding.

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Is this not one of the reasons klipsch uses horn loaded drivers in many of the designs ? Correct me if im wrong but this was my understanding.

My understanding was that a horn will couple the drivers output to the air better than a direct radiating driver, Low power amps were the norm at that time PWK started designing speakers, so he used horn loading as a method to give more volume per watt from his speakers. I don't dispute that. Greater output with reduced distortion can be achieved by other methods like multiple drivers, but that's more expensive. I simply questioned your statement that a direct radiating subwoofer inherently introduces "high distortion levels". Any speaker or sub can introduce high distortion levels when pushed past it's thermal or mechanical limits, horn loaded or conventional. I'll ask one last time, why does a direct radiating subwoofer, by design, create high distortion levels, as you stated?

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Here is a good link, helps explain some horn vs. direct radiator differences, fun read.

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/manufacture/zingali.htm

Good article, thanks. The article is geared toward loudspeakers, but the principals would apply to subs as well. I didn't read anywhere in there that when direct radiating speakers are DRIVEN WITHIN THEIR LIMITS, will inherently introduce distortion. That's my whole point. I've never debated the fact that horns are more efficient and require less wattage for a given SPL than a direct radiating subwoofer. I only took issue with the statement that DR subs introduce distortion by design. I also enjoy spirited debate with fellow enthusiasts[;)]

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Greater output with reduced distortion can be achieved by other methods like multiple drivers, but that's more expensive.

This is also confirmed, at least in my past discussions with Roy Delgado. His point of view is "it's all about the effective square inches of radiator area" (with due regard for the efficiency increase of using the horn design).

It is clear to me that Klipsch doesn't currently address this "ultra-low-frequency" marketplace in horn-loaded subwoofers. The consumer marketplace is currently dominated by direct radiating subwoofers. Klipsch's commercial "subwoofers" are really just low-frequency bass-reflex boxes (i.e., the KPT-684 and the -884 designs). Note that most professional venues do not have ultra-low-frequency
subwoofers that are also high-output devices. Most of the units that
I've seen on the professional marketplace (especially Klipsch's) start rolling off below ~30 Hz. However, there has recently been a move in the commercial marketplace toward horn-loaded subwoofer designs (last 5 years or so). The designs are becoming much more compact than in the past, making horn-loaded designs more viable for the always-space-limited professional marketplace.

The tapped horn subwoofers that I referenced above are very new designs (patented in fact by Danley). These units are very sensitive (relative to bass reflex and especially for closed box acoustic suspension units) and have a very low bottom end: it's difficult to call it "below fc" since there are in fact two effective horns built into one unit to yield the higher output and the smooth response. This is what gives the tapped horn design about a 3 dB advantage over traditional horn designs like the "Tuba" design listed above cubic inch for cubic inch.The Danley tapped horn designs are much smaller boxes for the same output.

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Is this not one of the reasons klipsch uses horn loaded drivers in many of the designs ? Correct me if im wrong but this was my understanding.

My understanding was that a horn will couple the drivers output to the air better than a direct radiating driver, Low power amps were the norm at that time PWK started designing speakers, so he used horn loading as a method to give more volume per watt from his speakers. I don't dispute that. Greater output with reduced distortion can be achieved by other methods like multiple drivers, but that's more expensive. I simply questioned your statement that a direct radiating subwoofer inherently introduces "high distortion levels". Any speaker or sub can introduce high distortion levels when pushed past it's thermal or mechanical limits, horn loaded or conventional. I'll ask one last time, why does a direct radiating subwoofer, by design, create high distortion levels, as you stated?

My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion, the driver itself produces the same distortion at the source, the distortion is simply diminished in the geometry of the horn path.

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My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion, the driver itself produces the same distortion at the source, the distortion is simply diminished in the geometry of the horn path.

"Anything that moves, distorts" Roy D.

The less that the drivers have to move to produce the required SPLs, the less distortion there will be - and this was an empirical observation by PWK.

Truly horn-loaded drivers move much less than direct radiators to produce the same SPLs.

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My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion, the driver itself produces the same distortion at the source, the distortion is simply diminished in the geometry of the horn path.

"Anything that moves, distorts" Roy D.

The less that the drivers have to move to produce the required SPLs, the less distortion there will be - and this was an empirical observation by PWK.

Truly horn-loaded drivers move much less than direct radiators to produce the same SPLs.

If this statement is in fact true it makes sense, while my thinking may be off kilter my previous statement is at least correct.

Time to find more information on the subject. [8-|]

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casko5, cool link to the sub build. to me it's way too big. i guess i am one of those types that wants a small sub woofer. my friend went ahead to purchased the sub the guy was selling. it was simpler and easier at the moment. but in true klipsch fashion, he told me that when he upgrades he'll look into better subs! hasn't even got the stuff in yet and is already thinking of moving on to bigger and badder! lol i think it's something to do with the name. it must has been some secret government experiment that Paul had them make. once you same the name "klipsch" the upgrade bugs burrows into the brain. lol

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once you say the name "klipsch" the upgrade bugs burrows into the brain.

[;)]

The bigger black speakers are sitting on top of horn-loaded subs...

The bigger black speakers in the corners are sitting on top of horn-loaded subs laying flat. The ceiling is 10' high... [:D]

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The less that the drivers have to move to produce the required SPLs, the less distortion there will be - and this was an empirical observation by PWK.

That's why I use four 18" drivers in an IB configuration. There's very little movement for very high SPL. There's no coloration from a box. The drivers are always well within their normal operating range. Just another way to skin a cat.

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My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion

Yes

This statement was taken out of context.

Every statement i ever read states by horn loading a driver the distortion is reduced and SPL goes up, unless you can show me otherwise i don't see how you can argue different.

Please prove me wrong.

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you know, i am just not smart enough to read that article and absorb anything. i need pictures! seriously, i was trying to read through it and just couldn't understand anything. it might as well been in Chinese or encrypted. i think when it comes to a sub i am going to buy something from, eD, SVS, or Epik. that's what "The Ear" recommended so i am going to stick with it.

thanks guys for all the info and help. the DIY subs look cool but just won't work in my living room set up. now if there is some kind of 12" cube that's bad F*****G A*S, then let me know. it would have to out do my sunfire sig true 12" sub for me to get it though.

thanks again

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My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion

Yes

This statement was taken out of context.

Every statement i ever read states by horn loading a driver the distortion is reduced and SPL goes up, unless you can show me otherwise i don't see how you can argue different.

Please prove me wrong.

Actually it wasn't. You made a statement that a direct radiating subwoofer design created distortion. Period. I never argued the merits of horn loading or it's benefits. This was never a discussion about distortion vs SPL in horn loading vs conventional direct radiating subwoofers. At least not from my end.

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My understanding is the design of the direct radiating woofer does not simply create more distortion

Yes

This statement was taken out of context.

Every statement i ever read states by horn loading a driver the distortion is reduced and SPL goes up, unless you can show me otherwise i don't see how you can argue different.

Please prove me wrong.

Actually it wasn't. You made a statement that a direct radiating subwoofer design created distortion. Period. I never argued the merits of horn loading or it's benefits. This was never a discussion about distortion vs SPL in horn loading vs conventional direct radiating subwoofers. At least not from my end.

No period, that is a comma and you keep jumbling my words around. Lets keep it civil here shall we.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/context

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/context'>
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Not trying to take sides here, but merely to voice some relevant and friendly observations...so understand that I'm waving a white truce flag here: "peace, brothers."

Jason: this is a good article. There is a lot of a dissension among folks that I know that I deem knowledgeable in this subject area versus the typical "technical reviews" that I read, In particular, I recently read an article on the Palladium series by authors who are clearly NOT horn-conversant. The interesting thing is that most of the objective tests focus on the one thing that can be easily corrected: frequency-based power response (i.e., "flat" speaker response). Distortion, which they usually don't measure objectively or if they do measure, are not measured for modulation distortion, is (for all practical purposes) the one thing that can't be corrected electronically.

This is the secret of horn-loaded speakers, IMHO. Most people are not paying attention to this most important of all speaker characteristics - modulation distortion. That is what causes the horn-loaded speaker to sound different: much lower modulation distortion.

I think that most people's expectations are pretty far out of line with physics when it comes to subwoofers. In my experience (and all other things being equal), the smaller the speaker-the lower the quality of reproduction. I think that a lot of folks have become used to listening to distortion of direct radiator speakers since they've spent their lives listening to them exclusively. Also note that a conventionally designed horn-loaded subwoofer that has a 20-25 Hz cutoff frequency would have a properly designed mouth of about the size of one wall of your fairly large listening room (i.e., the whole wall). Most people don't get this point. The Khorn is a wonder of engineering IMHO because it is so small--using the corner of the room to develop the last turn of the horn.

I remember an article written on the Khorn by Richard Heyser where he described a test whereby he placed a microphone outside of his building where he was testing the speakers. He could hear car doors slamming and birds chirping as he walked outside. When he walked inside and listened on the Khorns, car door slams sounded essentially the same. He noted that that wasn't true of the "high quality direct radiator loudspeaker system" that he was also testing in the same room under the same test conditions.

Chris

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If you truly want to hear the bass notes and not the high distortion levels associated with direct radiator designed subwoofers

Last post on this subject.

Last post in this thread.

First, I've never "jumbled" your words, merely quoted them.

Second, I have NEVER made any comparisons in distortion levels of horn subwoofers vs direct radiating.

Third, I merely asked you to back up your above statement with fact, which I have not read. Your words say that a direct radiator designed subwoofer is associated with high distortion levels. I contend that a direct radiating subwoofer, when driven within it's normal operating limits, is not a high distortion design. You've posted nothing to the contrary. You have the burden of proof to back your statement. I've not seen it.

Peace out, Carl.

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You've posted nothing to the contrary. You have the burden of proof to back your statement. I've not seen it.

Carl, please read the pdf link i posted right on this page.

Chris, well put, distortion is distortion, i just thought it was normal for woofers to sound the way they do until just recently. Now having a complete horn loaded system it has changed the way i hear music, all for the better. Since my completion of the horn loaded subwoofer paired to the LaScala's my Chorus II's just sit idle, what a shame huh ?

The music now just flows from my speakers and creates a complete soundstage without missing a beat, i can hear where every band member is playing instead of just hearing the good familiar sound, not that the subwoofer made all this difference but from other previous speakers owned too, nothing ever sounded just right.

Never will i go back now that im spoiled with horns, the way it was meant to be heard.

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