The bass of FORTE II (again)

[xyz65]

Hi

First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !!

I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them :

1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out

2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem

3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass

4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem.

To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch.

I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you:

1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ?

2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ?

One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

Thank you

Ran

[Don Richard]

Try locating them in corners, and move them in and out by a foot or two until the bass is acceptable.

[SilverSport]

yes...if nothing's wrong these should have PLENTY of bass (based on my slightly smaller Quartets and slightly larger Chorus IIs)

Bill

[willland]

Xyz65,

I have never heard from anyone that the Forte/Forte II lacks bass. Place them in the corners starting about 8-10 inches out with them toed in about 5 to 8 degrees. If that is too boomy, pull them out in 2 inch increments and listen again. Still not right, pull out some more. If that does not make a significant difference it could be the woofers themself. They age and become too pliable and lose their punch or the rubber surrounds will dry rot if not taken care of properly.

More than likely improper placement is the culprit.

Bill

[toolguym]

Here is something real simple to check.Try checking your speaker wires. If one of the speaker wires are hooked with polarity reversed,you will not hear a lot of bass in the listening area.

[Dennie]

The Bass greatly improved with the La Scala's when I replace the old Capacitors in my Crossovers. I actually replace the whole crossover with Crites Type AA/A crossovers and WOW, did the bass come alive.

How old are the speakers?

Dennie

[SET12]

Hi

First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !!
I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them :
1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out
2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem
3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass
4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem.

To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch.

I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you:

1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ?
2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ?

One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

Thank you

Ran

The bass of my Fortes has been described as jackhammer like, for reasons why see my thread here for photo's and the threads last pages for some Klipsch owners comments that have heard them. The problem is not your gear so much as its the wimpy networks IMO and I listen with just 10 watts!

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12

Cheers

SET12

[stormin]

Hi First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !! I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them : 1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out 2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem 3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass 4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem. To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch. I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you: 1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ? 2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ? One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out. Thank you Ran

The bass of my Fortes has been described as jackhammer like, for reasons why see my thread here for photo's and the threads last pages for some Klipsch owners comments that have heard them. The problem is not your gear so much as its the wimpy networks IMO and I listen with just 10 watts!

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12

Cheers

SET12

I understand you have fancy networks and all. I'm sure they sound excellent. But almost everyone who owns Forte II's know they produce bass. These things aren't wimps at any stretch of the imagination. He either has something wrong with his speakers or it is just a matter of location from the wall with the passives.

My Chorus II's can hit like a jackhammer and my networks are stock. I just use a different approach. I use an insane amount of power. By power I mean the kind that can control a woofer. Some amplifiers talk the talk but just cant walk the walk.[]

[wuzzzer]

When I first bought my Forte IIs I had a sub so I never listened to them without it until my (now long gone) cat chewed through my sub cable. I ran the Forte IIs full range until the new cable came in. I never thought they'd put out as much bass as they did. Deep, powerful, absolutely amazing for their size. Something must be amiss.

[artarama]

I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

This and room acustics may be the reason. If the Forte's are functioning correctly, not even at their best, they will kick out the base. They are rated to 32 HZ, lower than some sub's.

If you are unable to run the current or put the watts through these things, I don't think you will get what you want.

We need sound pressure levels, even with high efficiency you need to push the drivers. IMHO.

[SET12]

Hi First of all I'm sorry of my poor english. I'm about to sell my pair of Forte II because they lack of... BASS !! I read one similar thread here and i start to think that I never found the right amplier for them. I gave them : 1)"exposure xv" integrated amplifier (30 w) . The bass did not come out 2) Densen dm10 integrated amplifier (75 w). More powerfull but still the same problem 3) Jolida 202a integrated amplifier (30 w of tubes). Great matching with horns but still the lack of bass 4) Conrad Johnson PV 10 preamplifier + Trend audio TA 10 T-amp !! (10 w) . Great transparency and soundstage but still the same problem. To partially solved the problem I added a JBL subwoofer P8400. The bass improved of lot of course but there is not lot of punch. I own also a pair of JBL monitor 4312 and the JBL bass is there in all its magnificence , tight and with punch. So I decided to transfer them in the main room selling the Forte but...first i would like some advise from you: 1) Is the Forte able to deliver a JBL bass, tight and with punch ? 2) what ampli do you suggest for raising this bass ? Anyone tried a powerful and relative cheap CARVER ( M 1.5t for example ) ? One last thing : I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out. Thank you Ran

The bass of my Fortes has been described as jackhammer like, for reasons why see my thread here for photo's and the threads last pages for some Klipsch owners comments that have heard them. The problem is not your gear so much as its the wimpy networks IMO and I listen with just 10 watts!

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=159340&page=12

Cheers

SET12

I understand you have fancy networks and all. I'm sure they sound excellent. But almost everyone who owns Forte II's know they produce bass. These things aren't wimps at any stretch of the imagination. He either has something wrong with his speakers or it is just a matter of location from the wall with the passives.

My Chorus II's can hit like a jackhammer and my networks are stock. I just use a different approach. I use an insane amount of power. By power I mean the kind that can control a woofer. Some amplifiers talk the talk but just cant walk the walk.

Great response Stormin,

Yes, Forte's and others do have bass response, but not like these. And I have a stock pair here that demonstrates that.

I love your power approach "insane amount of it", When I started more than 35yrs ago I to had insane amounts of power, then I discovered I wanted quality vs quantity and to get it, I had to go with less and less power. I virtually went from 200 RMS/channel to just the 5 watts RMS or just 10 peak watts today.

Your right though, many amplifiers "talk the talk but just cant walk the walk" like that! And getting a 10 watt tube SET to do this isn't an easy task especially classically designed SET amps, but then again there is nothing hardly classical about my amps either.

They have the same energy storage as some Krell amps, 400 Joules, and they move that energy relatively unimpeded ( many have too high of DCR supply paths IMO) which is the key to their strong impact.

If there is one thing I learned its, a watt isn't just a watt, its what the watt does! I had a recently had visitor here and he owns PP Tube amplifiers with more than fifteen times the power I have! here's part of an e-mail he sent me

"Your amps really kick some a$$,
the networks are great too, but I never heard amps like that. Are you
sure its not like 100 watts, the decimal in the wrong place thing? : )

-Jim"

I have told Jim that its not just the amps but the whole system all of which is heavily modified including my CDP which has as much energy as a HT receiver.

But back to the networks, Iron core inductors IMO are just terrible and if you heard some Large Core Air Cores I sincerely doubt you'd ever go back to Iron Cores cause there's a real strong compression going on in Iron Cores which makes the bass sound lean in contrast.

I can tell you this, Jim above is ready to dump $1000 into networks for his Cornwall's.

A system is even more enjoyable when it has impact at lower volume levels.

Jim here has invited me to bring my amps to his home to hear on other klipsch's, as soon as we both can set a time, he lives near Chicago, I said I would bring my whole system, I'm not sure how many people he would plan to entertain but possible you could hear this system for yourself if he plans on having others there.

In the end each of us has our own needs and our own roads to take, some simple and some not so simple like mine.

SET12

[Badassbob]

My Fortes are in a less than ideal environment (the basement) without any sort of room treatment, and I get tons of bass from my 3W 6B4G SET. As a matter of fact, I get deeper and more detailed bass from my SET than I did from my old 52W EL34 amp. Something definitely is amiss. Have you had a look at your crossovers and made sure nothing was wired incorrectly? If you arent the original owner, theres a good chance somebody was dabbling in the crossovers and didnt wire something correctly.

[carbon summit]

I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

This and room acustics may be the reason. If the Forte's are functioning correctly, not even at their best, they will kick out the base. They are rated to 32 HZ, lower than some sub's.

If you are unable to run the current or put the watts through these things, I don't think you will get what you want.

We need sound pressure levels, even with high efficiency you need to push the drivers. IMHO.

I agree.

I notice at low volumes my Forte IIs don't put out as good a sound as they do when I turn them up. I also noticed they sounded pretty flat before I my crossovers were upgaded by DeanG. Could be a combination of the two issues. I know my Cornwalls sound much better at low volumes than my Forte IIs do so it may just be the nature of the beast. But if you turn them up the bass is there for you with the Forte IIs!!

[carbon summit]

If that does not make a significant difference it could be the woofers themself. They age and become too pliable and lose their punch or the rubber surrounds will dry rot if not taken care of properly.

Bill

What care should I be giving my speakers to keep this from happening?

[consistent]

Hi,

I had Forte II's for many year but they developed a problem...the woofer surrounds began to separate from the cone, the glue was the porblem. Check that you do not have this sort of problem. It did cause some diminishing (fluttering of base)

Cheers

[willland]

What care should I be giving my speakers to keep this from happening?

I was mainly referring to 20+ year old speakers that might have been stored in a less than ideal environment like a hot garage or a non climate controlled storage unit. I am sure dusting the surrounds and wiping with a damp cloth will prevent that.

Bill

[carbon summit]

What care should I be giving my speakers to keep this from happening?

I was mainly referring to 20+ year old speakers that might have been stored in a less than ideal environment like a hot garage or a non climate controlled storage unit. I am sure dusting the surrounds and wiping with a damp cloth will prevent that.

Bill

OK, just wanted to be sure I wasn't missing some simple step that I'd regret down the road. My oo Forte IIs and Academy really need to be oiled. I've been neglecting them on that aspect, I wondered what else I haven't been doing!

[SilverSport]

I noticed a similar response when comparing the similar Quartet and Heresy speakers...the Heresy sounded cleaner but this gap closed significantly for me when I added Crites Titanium tweeter diaphragms...

Bill

I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

This and room acustics may be the reason. If the Forte's are functioning correctly, not even at their best, they will kick out the base. They are rated to 32 HZ, lower than some sub's.

If you are unable to run the current or put the watts through these things, I don't think you will get what you want.

We need sound pressure levels, even with high efficiency you need to push the drivers. IMHO.

I agree.

I notice at low volumes my Forte IIs don't put out as good a sound as they do when I turn them up. I also noticed they sounded pretty flat before I my crossovers were upgaded by DeanG. Could be a combination of the two issues. I know my Cornwalls sound much better at low volumes than my Forte IIs do so it may just be the nature of the beast. But if you turn them up the bass is there for you with the Forte IIs!!

[stormin]

I live in a flat and I cannot listen at very high levels but the bass should be come out.

This and room acustics may be the reason. If the Forte's are functioning correctly, not even at their best, they will kick out the base. They are rated to 32 HZ, lower than some sub's.

If you are unable to run the current or put the watts through these things, I don't think you will get what you want.

We need sound pressure levels, even with high efficiency you need to push the drivers. IMHO.

I agree.

I notice at low volumes my Forte IIs don't put out as good a sound as they do when I turn them up. I know my Cornwalls sound much better at low volumes than my Forte IIs do so it may just be the nature of the beast. But if you turn them up the bass is there for you with the Forte IIs!!

That is exactly how I hear. The Cornwalls walk all over the Chorus II/Forte II/Quartets at low to medium volumes. Its at higher volumes where the Cornwalls get left in the dust.

At low volumes I personally like the addition of either loudness compensation or tone controls. It keeps the speaker more even top to bottom. A stepped attenuator to lower the mids at lower volumes would probably be even more beneficial.

To clarify that last paragraph. I feel those compensations are only needed on the less than optimal recordings.

[xyz65]

Thanks to all.

I will try the placement in the corner. Never try because I thought the Forte' was not engineered to work like the k-horns.

Also because of the passive radiator the theory says that they should be quite far from the rear wall. Anyway I tried the placement near the rear wall and far from it without any great result.