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Philosophical question for Khorn/LaScala owners


Coytee

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"The white zone.. is for loading [bs], or unloading [bs] only. If you have a load... you need to load.. or unload go to the white zone..... Well.. Well... NOW.. Catholic girlls..."

Roger

In all of my experience, that gameplan was never practical. Virtually all of my experiences had audio stores (mid grade to upper end) that indeed, might have had systems setup however.... I was constrained with only listening to the systems of the vendors they carried.

My experience is fortunately just the opposite. I bought my first audiophile-type rig in a store that specialized in used gear. They would setup gear into various mated up systems that sounded good together and added up to some budget total. But even in fancier stores back then, there were "systems" organized into logical arrangements. Not that you had to buy it that way, but that it was a recommendation based on compatiblility, price and so on. They wouldn't put a 20W amplifier with a set of speakers that needed 100W, and so on. Some stores were good at this, others were not.

Here's the main point though. "Speakers" and "amps" are not really separate things. In terms of utility and function, a speaker unconnected from an amp is a fancy plant stand. An amp unconnected from a speaker is a nice wheel chock. We pretend these are separate things - they aren't. A speaker is the load of an amplifier. It is the output component of an amplifier. A music system is ONE THING - a unitary electronic circuit which functions as a whole entity. It's not Unit A passing something off to Unit B, and then to Unit C and so on. That's our poor imagination at work. That's not how a stereo is physically working.

The fact that we saw a stereo into parts to sell as pieces shouldn't deceive anyone as to what it is. The speaker is simply a PART of the amplifier. Or, vice versa if you want.

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It is not an argument of any kind what-so-ever! It is a stated fact, and a joke at your expense... YOU, are a [bs] artist, and will rearange the parameters of any discussion at hand to twist the statement to make yourself look corect, and are sadly mistaken if you think that most here don't realize as much. I know you like marxism, but you would have made a heck of a Democrat.... Don't have to reply, don't care about your oppinion.... never did... Just clarrifying so you did not mistake it for anything except what it is...

Roger

"The white zone.. is for loading PWK BS Button, or unloading PWK BS Button only. If you have a load... you need to load.. or unload at the white zone..... Well.. Well... NOW.. Catholic girlls..."

Roger

I'm guessing you think that passes for an argument? What's the point? Why not just sit there and type random characters into the keyboard? It would be as meaningful and probably funnier.

Someday I hope to understand what people are trying to accomplish when they do that.

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1. What a speaker "does" is generally going to refer to physical measurements or properties. It is "objective." It might be such things as frequency response, efficiency measurments, distortion and so on.

What a speaker "does", and the big reason for which speakers are made, is to produce or reproduce sounds. They are not made for the express purpose of being measured. Measurements are simply part of the design and/or setup processes.

2. How a speaker "sounds" is generally going to be a subjective analysis, and may not correlate in any possible way to the physical, objective properties. A listener might say it sounds flat or harsh or muddy, or shrill and so on. That analysis isn't measured, it's simply subjective.

How a speaker sounds is a result of the design/construction process. It will sound very different in different environments. It will sound very different with different recordings. It will sound somewhat different with different amplification. The important thing is whether the music is being reproduced so that it is enjoyable to the listener. It has been my experience that large, efficient horn loaded speakers transmit the emotional impact of varying types of music better than smaller speakers.

Not all will agree, of course. I have friends who swear by the Bose Acoustic Wave radio, and say that is all you need. A listen to Saint-Saens Symphony No.3, the Organ Symphony, will easily dispel that notion. There is no emotional connection to that work when the featured instrument is mostly inaudible. Not to me, anyway.

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I honk away all the time Don, but people get mad at me and never once ask if I like horns!

I do get through traffic quicker though. And once I was forced to go to the hospital with a police escort because he believed I really did need an appendectomy!

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From where I sit, I see two "turds" in the punch bowl, and I had nothing to do with bringing them to the party...

Gentlemen of the world UNITE to fight the heartless hun and the godless goosestepper...

Roger, that IS a joke, as was the turd comment. Lighten up. It's just audio...

Dave

post-9494-13819583129222_thumb.jpg

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A little slow on the uptake are we ehh?

That's OK, you proved my point thoroughly... [H]

Roger

It is not an argument of any kind what-so-ever! It is a stated fact, and a joke at your expense... YOU, are a PWK BS Button artist, and will rearange the parameters of any discussion at hand to twist the statement to make yourself look corect, and are sadly mistaken if you think that most here don't realize as much. I know you like marxism, but you would have made a heck of a Democrat.... Don't have to reply, don't care about your oppinion.... never did... Just clarrifying so you did not mistake it for anything except what it is...

Roger

Jesus, give it a rest already. Do you ever post anything related to the subject people are discussing? And, haven't you been here long enough now to know the rules against posting all your constant political rants?

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OK, if that was bait, you got me, Roger.

You know nothing of Mark, nor of me. You are thoroughly disgusting and you may continue spilling the sewage from your mind on your own. You have poisoned a fine thread of great thoughts and I hope you wind up out there with Parrot...whom I miss far more than I shall you.

-30-

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I would have to vote for the speakers myself and would be happy even to downgrade to a off the shelf receiver for power, why you ask ? Nothing less images or sounds quite like the Klipsch big boys and i have heard most but not all of the Klipsch lineup (yes i still have not heard a set of stock Belle's) [:(] .

No matter how you sugar cote a speakers sound with fancy electronics any design has its limits to how its going to sound, for example lets say i kept my first real set of speakers (a set of late 70's Jensen 2 way's) and kept upgrading amp after amp until i had the best sound ever in my mind, then i mozy over to Simply Stereo and hear a set of Klipschorns for the first time, i bet i would be kicking myself in the *** for spending all that dough on that fancy power goods for nothing, just another fool spending money where it does no good.

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Dave,

I did not post to, or bait you. Does not matter anyhow, because I stepped on your mesiahs toes. I put forth my thoughts about the shell game he plays with his answers to make it sound as if he was correct all along. Well, at least he is orriginal, you on the other hand are a groupie...

Roger [Y]

OK, if that was bait, you got me, Roger.

You know nothing of Mark, nor of me. You are thoroughly disgusting and you may continue spilling the sewage from your mind on your own. You have poisoned a fine thread of great thoughts and I hope you wind up out there with Parrot...whom I miss far more than I shall you.

-30-

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I can only speak for myself (in spite of the reputation that I allow to float about) but when I had my EV's as my prime speakers, replaced by my LaScala's as my prime speakers, replaced by my Khorns....and then replaced by my Jubilees..... I don't typically listen to the 6:00 news at 110 db's.

I use my speakers for 90% of any listening that I do (other 10% is from TV speaker when I'm too lazy to turn everything on).

I don't think playing them loud is really what it's all about.

To further clarify this. I was watching American Idol with the wife tonight. (yeah yeah yeah.... I know, cutting edge and esoteric stuff there)

Anyways, I got up, got my ever so trusty Radio Shack SPL meter. Though the room was dark and it was hard to see, it looks like we were peaking about 85db's and were cruising in the mid 70's. I had to turn the meter knob to each range to get a better idea since we bounced around like that.

This was in the room listening.

Yes, when I'm downstairs (prior to hooking up my LaScalas) I'd have the nail guns, saws, compressors going so the Jubilee's would be screaming their guts out upstairs (and I'd also have hearing protection on). For rational listening though, it's looking like 70's to 85db's would be more normal. Maybe even give it a 90 for kicks & grins.

I still contend (and feel absolutely) that these larger speakers at these levels still exceed the sound I had when I had the little pair of Heresy's in the same room playing at similar levels. Simply a larger scale to the sound.

Only reason I bring this point up specifically is to actually quantify some of my listening levels with actual metered values. It's almost a shame to dispel the myth that I only listen to my system at 150 db's while using chain saws & driving bulldozers. [:P]

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Closest we have had to a flame war in a long time.

Speaking of flames, I think you are next on the "Amy's Ducks" list. I have one more thought for them and will try to get them out soon. Rained today so didn't go outside for my idea. Probably do it this weekend, sooner if I can. then, they will be yours to flame.

[Y]

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From my perspective, the physics of audio clearly shows that bigger is always better when it comes to accurate reproduction of the source material...however, that assumes some things about other parts of the system that may not always be true in every application - and price point will certainly play a role in that too.

At the end of the day, you gotta look at everything from a total system perspective...and I really think the first place to start is with the source material and listening habits of the listener since that will pretty much dictate what everything else needs to do.

I definitely believe that speakers are by far the weakest link in terms of accuracy, but I can see how that's not necessarily everyone's goal...

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I don't know how you guys change colors. Hmm...perhaps you do it in Word or equivalent? I'll give that a try.

Let's go back to the start..I think the question has some problems to begin with.

Just for kicks, let's presume that you do NOT currently own your Khorns or LaScalas. Let's presume you own any Klipsch that is NO LARGER than Cornwalls.

So this would include Palladiums. At least the Palladium bookshelf and probably the small tower too.

Sure, why not. I’m trying to speak in generalities so that’s fine.

Let's also presume that you have "decent" electronics. Not "world class" but not trash either. For more fun, let's presume it might even be solid state.

This doesn't have much exactitude. "Decent" by what kind of standard? Stereophile, or Live Sound Magazine?

Intentionally left vague so that user “A” of nice solid state could imagine his brand in there and user “B”, someone who might be fond of tubes such as yourself, could imagine your brand in there (no pun intended!) I didn’t want to state a brand/style of electronics so that anyone reading might find their own level of definitions. I did not want this to become a flame war over SS/tubes/other

I'm wondering.... if you had enough cash in pocket to make a SINGLE purchase to futher yourself towards your sonic goal, would you recommend to yourself:1. Keeping the same electronics you have and make your purchase a pair of Klipschorns or LaScalas/Belle's

So, trading in your Palladium, RF7, RF83, Cornwall, Heresy speakers for a Belle/LaScala/Khorn.

In the world of Klipsch that just about covers it, yes. Remember though, as per above, they (including the Palladium owners) also have ‘decent’ electronics (McIntosh?? OTL’s?? pCats?? Krell??). They (including Palladium owners) are still not totally happy with their sound and are still looking to make improvements. They (including Palladium owners) also do not have terrible room conditions. (I tried to remove the room as an issue to simply keep the playing field even)

2. Keep your existing speakers and upgrade your (Brand X) preamp/amp to perhaps a tube preamp/amp?

Why tubes? That's a bit arbitrary. Plenty of world class SS amps out there.

Because I know there are people who seem to feel that regardless of what solid state you might have, tubes will always make things better. I was trying to cover all bases without making it 34 paragraphs long full of criteria. As you can see this post evolving, I can easily make it 34 paragraphs long [:o]

In other words.... if you could only make ONE change, would you prefer to have your Khorns mated with a 'decent' preamp/amp or would you rather have your smaller speakers mated with a fantastic preamp/amp?

Problem here. You can't buy a "fanstastic preamp and amp" for the price of a pair of Belle/LaScala/Khorn. Not even close. For fantastic amps you are looking at $10 Gs and north for amps, compared to maybe $2 Gs for the Heritage speakers.

Frankly, I think you just made one of my points. Even though I was not trying to point that out. However, for the sake of this thread, I would not necessarily agree. You’re suggesting new prices on electronics and used prices on Heritage. Let’s keep it used to used or new to new. If someone is buying electronics, they are probably going to buy new, so if we use NEW prices then I think you are wrong. I happen to think my Peach is pretty ‘fantastic’ and it was more affordable than my Khorns used and MUCH more affordable than a new pair of Khorns. Would you feel your pCats are merely good or would you think they are also fantastic? I’d like to think that you feel they can sonically, go ‘toe to toe’ with any other amp out there of similar design goals. So, if that is reasonable then they too, were less than a new pair of Khorns were they not? (something like 5K verses maybe 6/7K on Khorns?) I personally don’t equate “fantastic” with price. I equate some of these outlandishly expensive items more with marketing. Isn't that part of how you build JM? Going direct from MFG to consumer while cutting out the middle guys who accomplish not much but raising the price to cover their overhead and commissions?

Regardless, my goal was to try to leave the definition of decent and fantastic in the eyes of the reader. What is fantastic to a millionaire might be yard trash to Bill Gates for all I know. I’d probably love both! I would add that even if we use your prices above (10K for amps, 2K for Heritage) then the value per upgrade is even more dramatic and tends to support my logic that you can get FAR more bang for your buck on upgrading your sound by upgrading your speakers instead of the electronics (again, presuming you already have decent electronics).

Remember....just for kicks & grins.... you can only make ONE purchase so you are stuck with one or the other and can't make any changes for several more years.I'm curious as to which choice you might make and why. I'll admit that I'm expecting 99% of Khorn/LaScala/Belle owners to choose the speaker upgrade over electronics. Since I don't really know that to be true, I thought I'd ask.

Well, here it's hard to disagree with your guess that 99% of current Heritage owners would say they'd buy the same thing they now have!! That's more or less common sense. A better question would be to ask the current owners of Palladium, RF7, RF83, Heresy, Cornwall what THEY would do. They're not pre-biased to the speakers you are suggesting, right? I mean, yeah, everyone loves what they currently have - - we can all say yes to that!

Ahh…but I’d suggest that a fair percentage of LaScala/Khorn owners have ALSO owned RF’s, Heresy’s and yes, perhaps even Cornwalls so I don’t feel I excluded too many people. Indeed, they would be even better responders to the question because they’ve seen both sides of the fence. Clearly, not so much with Palladium owners since frankly, they are so far & few between. It seems to me that someone who has already walked the walk of owning Heresy’s or Cornwalls and now has Khorns sitting there, will understand far quicker the gist of my questions, than someone who has Heresy’s or Cornwalls sitting there and has never heard anything larger.

I’ll mention again, the real reason I started this thread. My predisposition is that it’s always good speakers first, followed by good electronics. If someone is sitting there with a McIntosh preamp/amp, then it’s pretty hard for me to throw any stones at those electronics. If they also have some Heresy’s and are looking for how to get ‘better sound’ out of their system, I can only infer there are a couple weak points. Room? (they say they are happy with it) Electronics? (how can you shake a stick at McIntosh?) Speaker wires? (I fall in the camp of good wire can be bought at HD and doesn’t have to be $300/lineal foot) Ultimately, I think there is but one place to look and that would be to put something larger than Heresy’s there. Cornwalls? LaScalas? Khorns?

I read a thread…actually, I think it was two threads (unrelated). I don’t remember where they were. The gist of what I read was similar to above. Decent electronics, though the room was probably not discussed. If I recall the thread correctly, one of the responders to the situation was someone who had larger speakers posted in their signature line (Khorns/LaScalas) yet, as I recall, their response was to replace the amp with another brand.That simply left me scratching my head because of my (admitted) predisposition towards speakers first followed by electronics. I was intrigued why this person didn’t tell the original poster what to me, seemed rather obvious. Instead of feeding your Heresy’s power from ‘this amp’ (no idea what it was), he should be feeding his (enter larger speaker) power from the same amp. By swapping out amps and feeding his Heresy’s from a different (even if world class) amp, he might get a tonal change or a bit of clarity change however, he’s going to get 99% of what he already had.

If instead, he put some larger speakers there, then the impact of his sound (and I don’t mean volume) would be on a larger scale and I submit, would probably end up being closer to the solution for which he was looking.

I might add, I did not post on either of these two threads because I was busy scratching my head about what I was reading. I let that stew in the back of my head for a while and finally had to ask publicly, which is what caused this thread.

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...and I thought that I owned ugly speakers. These remind me of an older Tim Burton movie (Beetlejuice...). [+o(]

Chris

P.S., the dialogue just above seems to be a higher on Maslow's hierarchy of needs...

Thanks guys--I don't have to pre-cringe when I read it.

Chris [:S]

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For those who are certain that bigger is always better, I offer these 6 foot, 1500 pound Wilson's, which owing to their size, must be a lot better than Klipschorns, right?

I recently read the thicker brochure on the Palladium 39F. I have to say that it vaguely reminds me of the same sort of thing that JBL put out on the Everest II; I had this sinking feeling that what they are doing is selling image/novelty more than sound. The emphasis seems to be on very high-priced drivers and cabinet construction, not what I would consider the prime measure of merit: their sound. I don't particularly like the imposing presence of large horn speakers but their sound, for me, more than makes up for this negative point. I also admire the founder/architect of the Klipsch & Associates designs for his no-nonsense engineering approach.

This brings up a more important subject: I really don't like "buying my way into hi-fi" like a stereotyped American trying to "buy their image". I recognize that my middle-class background prevents me from liking that sort of thing (maybe I should live in Iowa). I actually like the granola/tree-hugging earthiness of the Heritage series (and especially Jubs, BTW) since it appeals to my sense of values and need for connection with the engineering or physics of the product.

Maybe Hi-Fi needs to be fun. Large speakers ARE fun (for me). So are tube electronics, turntables, speaker spikes, and silver cables...for some others, too.

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