Jump to content

P. Audio PH-4525 horn and BM-D750 (aka. K69)


Recommended Posts

Carl, thanks for the comments. I'm glad I'm not the only one loosing his mind with this Khorn bass thing. I have enjoyed the Khorns for several years now, but I have also owned Cornwalls, Belles, La Scala's, Forte's, Heresey's and a few other Heritage speakers. Although I really like the Khorns, I know I am missing the 'punch' many of the others had. I have spent many hours messing with the bass bins' seal etc. I know they are performing as they should and they do put out a lot of 'room encompassing' bass. But that 'chest compression punch' is not quite there like it was in my La Scalas and Belles. I know, crazy statement, but I guess I'm just a Neanderthal.

The more I have delved into this, the more folks I have found that once had Khorns and went 'back' to other bass bin speakers for the same reason. I wish I had someone close who had all of these speakers in the same room, ready for A/B testing...wouldn't that be fun.

Bottom line is I am loving the journey, probably more than the destination. This is a lot of fun for me, I learn stuff and in the big scheme of things it is an inexpensive hobby. Worst case scenario, I'm out $400 in Baltic Birch. I have a week to decide which way to go...so, keep the ideas coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 85
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Hey Rudy,

Looking at your EQ'd plots, it seems like you're tilted a bit in the other direction. Your gate for the HF section seems a bit long (there's comb-filtering showing up in the measurement), but if you threw in a shelf filter around 4kHz (either to boost the highs or cut the lows), then I think you might end up real close with the other filters you've already got engaged.

Dr. Who, if you are familiar with the Behringer DCX-2496, can you tell me how to set up the shelf filter? I can't seem to find that addressed anywhere in the manual or how to do it in the pc control software.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Claude. I can always boom myself out of the room if I want with two big subwoofers and boosting the Khorns. But, that is not quite what I am looking for. The Khorns have more of an eveloping, all around you, bass that is difficult to describe. I find that I miss the more direct firing, chest pressure, type of bass.

Decisions, decisions.

FWIW Rudy, I know exactly what you are describing with the Khorn versus La Scala - eveloping versus punchy. I'm suprised you didn't go with Jubilees. To my ears (and chest), they have the punch the Khorns lack along with the depth of the Khorn.

Greg

Looking at the difference between Khorn and Jubilee curves will show you there is more energy between 60 and 120 Hz. with a Jube than a Khorn, which can be EQ's into the Khorn. There doesn't need to be DBB's for that, but yes the Jube had the punch. But how come you never mention the MWM bass, Greg? It's your avatar and I can't imagine more punch than that for twin 15s or even a single 15?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

FWIW Rudy, I know exactly what you are describing with the Khorn versus La Scala - eveloping versus punchy. I'm suprised you didn't go with Jubilees. To my ears (and chest), they have the punch the Khorns lack along with the depth of the Khorn.

Greg

Well, I haven't started yet. I might just build the DBB's to get my feet wet on builds and build the Jub clone or Jamboree when I get some experience. OTOH, I could just start with the Jamboree.

My brain hurts again.

Try MWMs if you want to build bass punch.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But how come you never mention the MWM bass, Greg? It's your avatar and I can't imagine more punch than that for twin 15s or even a single 15?

The MWM's don't sound very good in my shop. It's obvious that the room does not compliment my MCM system well at all. I get HUGE bass between the two stacks, and very little low bass out in front of them. I've tried all kinds of EQ settings, time alignment, and phase switching and still no real fix for the problem. I can overcome some of the problem with massive EQ, but it's not a fix.

Since the room is primarily a workshop, I'm not willing to relocate the speakers in a different place in the room. That would just make the room very difficult to use. They are tucked into corners at the end of the room where they don't interfere with my work.

So I just tolerate the problems and still very much enjoy the system. It's the system I listen to the most!

But the bass from the MWM's does not sound anywhere near as good as the bass from Jubilees, or Jamborees, or Khorns for that matter. Yes, they have more output, but output is not how I define good bass.

MWM's just don't fit in people's living rooms. They are completely impractical and ugly. Jubilees are ugly enough, and a tough sell for most people. I'd have my Jubilees in my living room a lot more often if my wife would let me. And frankly I really dont' like the way they look in there either. But there's NO WAY MWM's are getting into the living room, unless they make their way out before she gets home!

So for all those reasons, I don't talk to people much about the MWM's.

Greg

post-11090-13819583548646_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Greg, I have used mine only in basement living rooms and the small room loads them perfectly at the frequencies where they are weakest. I think ONE bin is enough per channel (had double bins for almost a year and the Peavey, MB-1 was a huge improment in sound while taking up the space of the upper bin....CD horn in the lower mids to 180 Hz. rocks. The more open throat and single fold of the MWM makes if more like a LaScala that goes a full octave lower in terms of extreme bass definition with oomph. The bass RISESat about 50 Hz. before it drops so it follows the ISO equal loudness compensation curve naturally (lower disco thump). It comes back with a little bit of output in the 35 Hz. range, which get loaded up nice by a small room.

Yes, the room is 90% of the the sound, so sorry to hear they are not so good in your shop. Mark Fragnito has his double bins EQ'd pretty well I hear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quick update gents. I spent about an hour and a half doing some less than critical listening while I got my Trachorns ready for shipment.

Male vocals are very good, but female vocals are just a little less 'refined' and 'delicate' than I remember the Trachorn/JBL combination. Not horrible, just slightly less smooth. I hope this is due to my current EQ settings, I'm sure they are not optimum. I have only spent an hour or so on the EQ and crossover settings since I am limited by the Khorn bass bin.

The coolest thing I found purely by accident is that these horns image very well even when I am not in my sweet spot! That is huge for my room. Every other horn I have owned imaged well, but only in my sweet spot. These horns somehow keep the central image in relative position when I move around the room. I have heard of folks talking abou this, but I never experienced it. This was a welcome surprise. Todays listening session reinforced my initial impression of a much larger soundstage, yet instrument placement is rather precise. The Trachorns were good at placing instruments, but the soundstage was not this large.

I am so convinced this is a good sound for me, the other gear is being sold and I am now about to order the same driver/horn combination for the center channel. Since I will only need two channels of the Behringer for each speaker, I now have two channels unused. Perfect for my center to go active as well. Lucked out and picked up a Hafler P3000 for center duty, only $130.

This driver and horn was a great find Chris! Thanks.

Next week I plan on starting the DBB build. This should be fun.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dr. Who, if you are familiar with the Behringer DCX-2496, can you tell me how to set up the shelf filter? I can't seem to find that addressed anywhere in the manual or how to do it in the pc control software.

I have no clue actually...I seem to recall TomB writing a quick tutorial on it though. I'll see if I can't find it...I remember it not being very intuitive.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have no clue actually...I seem to recall TomB writing a quick tutorial on it though. I'll see if I can't find it...I remember it not being very intuitive.

No, it is not intuitive. That is one thing I miss abou the EV DC-ONE. It had a much better GUI. Using a shelf would be the ticket to make it easier to voice the BM-D750.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rudy, I don't have mine in front of me right now, but as I recall when in the EQ menu you have a cloice of parametric, HP, and LP, the HP and LP refer to high and low pass shelve filters. It is a shame they are not labled correctly but if you go in to the high and low pass filter area it sould give you all the right choices to set up the shelve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rudy, I don't have mine in front of me right now, but as I recall when in the EQ menu you have a cloice of parametric, HP, and LP, the HP and LP refer to high and low pass shelve filters. It is a shame they are not labled correctly but if you go in to the high and low pass filter area it sould give you all the right choices to set up the shelve.

Awesome! Thank you. Between work, the 'honey do' list and my prep for the DBB build, I'm swamped. I will give it a try next week some time. I appreciate the Tip. BTW, will selecting one of the HP or LP be just for one position or does it preclude using parametric EQ in the remaining 'positions'?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Now that I have everything set up, although I'm still in the process of making small tweaks, I wanted to report on my impressions of this horn/driver combination.

When I had them in my Khorns, up against the side walls, they imaged very well and had a reasonable soundstage.....what I thought was good at the time.

However, now that they are sitting on top of the DBB, and have been pulled away from both the front and side walls, it is a whole different sound. This horn/driver combo has an amazing, wide and deep soundstage. I currently have them about 8 feet from the front wall and 4 feet from the side wall. I moved them around quite a bit until I got the soundstage I have now.

Center image is dead center, instruments are easily placed in the soundstage with good recordings, and the horns are presenting as deep a soundstage as I have ever heard in my room. Although all my recent efforts have been on my DBB build and setup, it is the P. Audio horns that are stealing the show. The DBB bass bins are excellennt and I am still working on just the right amount of EQ for my taste. But the P. Audio horns are really shining and I was not even focusing on those. This horn and driver was a real find for the price and performance.

BTW, I did figure out the shelving on the DCX2496.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Rudy,

This is good news. I'm currently sitting on my center-channel upgrade toys, waiting for the weekend to come rolling around to try out the active crossover and the P.Audio horn/driver combination that you have. I have also found that moving the corner horns forward into the room has increased their imaging performance. I accomplished this by standing the horn-loaded subs up against the front wall on each side and placing the Jubs in front of them (like false-corner backstops). This moves the Jubs a foot forward into the room-- it makes a large difference in the sound image, since the K-402 horn mouths are now out in front of the mantle and the associated "gear" such as the equipment rack and the flat screen.

Roy recently mentioned that anything between the speakers on the front wall will disrupt the sound field. He included in that discussion those stick-up acoustic foam panels currently on the doors between the Jubs in the Jub room in Hope--and recommended that they needed to be removed.

Chris

post-28404-13819599256104_thumb.jpg

Edited by Cask05
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris:

Let me know how your center channel works out. When I was at Hope a few weeks ago, I spent as much time as I could in Roy's room listening to the "Reference" Jubilee's. I will share with you my impressions of that setup. The room, if you recall has a sloped ceiling which complicates the sound field in that room. I would guess that the sound absorbers between the speakers are only affecting the very high frequencies. I will guess it is only a 2" foam at best. (My room, BTW, has nothing between the speakers other than the center La Scala. )

Otherwise, there was very little treatment in the room. There were some poly cylinders on the left wall only. The back of the room also had some thin acoustic foam. I'm no expert, but don't consider that as a 'treated' room. I don't know how much thought has gone into the acoustics of that room.

I spent quite a bit of time in that room trying to see how Roy's Jubilee's image. As with yours, I found a precise 'center' image lacking. I moved all over that room, sat in the front couch, the back couch and stood in the midde of the room. The bass bins image very well, but I have a terrible time with the K402 image. I guess it is just me, because you guys seem to have no problem with the imaging. The highs certainly 'envelop' you, much the way a Khorn bass bin provides enveloping bass, but I could not precisely place instrumets or singers.

I was very impressed with the bass output of the Jub bass bins at high volume. Very clean and quick. At lower volume, the impact was less immediate.

I have 'lead' ears, so my impressions can be easily dismissed. I continually try to 'learn' what to listen for and how to evaluate a good soundfield. I truly wish Roy had been there so I could pick his brain and share my experience so he could explain to me what I was missing. Unfortunately, he was off on business.

Back to the P. Audio horn, I have been pleasently surprised with the imaging and HUGE soundstage I am getting in my room by having the DBB's away from the boundary walls. Those horns are excellent with the BM-D750 (K69).

I have a feeling you are going to love the 'big sound' of that horn for your center to better match the big sound of the 402.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I currently have them about 8 feet from the front wall and 4 feet from the side wall.

My LS are about five feet from the front wall (across an entry hallway, sorta), with a wall directly behind them. I can't explain this well, so I'll post a pic once again so you can visualize. The depth of the sound is VERY good. They aren't in the 'corners', but pulled in left/right a little bit. I had them closer, but there was not enough distance between them.

In short, I think what you are doing makes a ton of sense given my own experience.

Bruce

post-7149-13819599256958_thumb.jpg

post-7149-13819617580778_thumb.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Bruce. Since I was now free to move the speakers around the room, vs. the Khorns, I put them on mover dollies and moved them around until I found the best soundfield. Frankly, at first, I felt like they were too far into the room since I was used to the Khorns far near the corner. However, the sound is so good now, it wouldn't matter if I was sitting on them.

As I noted earlier, my focus has all been on the bass bins, but the real performance star has turned out to be the P. Audio horns and drivers. They seem to cover the frequency range very well and sound really good, very dynamic, very detailed. What has gottem my attention the most since I found their placement is the wide and deep soundstage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Chris:

Let me know how your center channel works out. When I was at Hope a few weeks ago, I spent as much time as I could in Roy's room listening to the "Reference" Jubilee's. I will share with you my impressions of that setup. The room, if you recall has a sloped ceiling which complicates the sound field in that room. I would guess that the sound absorbers between the speakers are only affecting the very high frequencies. The way I have the jubs setup is not the way the room was intended on being used. Paul like the Khorns along the long wall so that he could insert a bell in between. I will guess it is only a 2" foam at best. it affect freqs as low as 1k hz. (My room, BTW, has nothing between the speakers other than the center La Scala. )

Otherwise, there was very little treatment in the room. There were some poly cylinders on the left wall only. Again the room was not intended to be used the way the jubs are in the room. The back of the room also had some thin acoustic foam. I'm no expert, but don't consider that as a 'treated' room. This room is intended to be a middle of the road room. I don't know how much thought has gone into the acoustics of that room. We have tef’d the room extensively so that we know where not to place speakers whenever we are doing an a/b test.

Hey Rudy I've been in conversations with Roy in the past were he talked about this room and his use of it. I thought instead of me trying to repeat what I've learned it would be better if I forward your observations to him so he could give a response(in red) that might clarify any confusion about the room/setup.

I will post some pictures that will show that the acoustical room treatments were placed with the idea that the loudspeakers would be arrayed on the long wall the way PWK liked to use it.

By the way for what it's worth the Jubs/K402s in my room/setup can produce a very well defined/precise center image when the recording calls for it.

mike tn

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...