Jump to content

Acarian Man Wowed by KHorns


Recommended Posts

Still impressed by KHorns 5 months on. I've got them dialed into my room in the north and southeast corners about 21' apart. The listening chair is centered opposite in front of the fireplace which puts my ears about 8' from the speakers - nearfield for these speakers I suppose, but, the best I can do in this room and much better than along the short 13' wall. My ears are about 42" off the floor (bottom of the midhorn). This produces a very enjoyable "widescreen" soundstage. At first there was a bit of "hole in the middle" effect, but, I've removed the Khorn outer tophat thumb nuts and angled them in to focus the image on the listening position and this seems to have gotten rid of the hole. The couch sits between the speakers centered in the picture window. I've created as much symmetry as possible through careful measuring which helps balance the soundstage. No room treatments as yet unless you count a thin 6'x8' rug centered in front of the listening chair. If I switch the couch and chair 2 or 3 people can listen but only the person in the center of the couch is in the "sweet spot". The soundstage pulls immediately to left or right if my ears deviate from center.

Other components have remained the same. Marantz SA8260 SACD (higher rez) or Apple TV streaming wave files wirelessly (lower rez) to a Parasound P/HP SS preamp to VTL Tiny Triodes to stock 1990 KHorns.

Here's todays question. I have about $1k to spend on upgrading. What is my next step, big bang for the buck?

  • Better CD/SACD player?
  • Better interconnects (currently generic)?
  • Better preamp (maybe tubed like a Modwright, Audible Illusions, or the new DIY Audio DHT/OTL unit)?
  • Better speaker cables (currently zip cord)?
  • Universal passive crossover to replace stock 20 years old Klipsch unit?
  • Volti audio Tractix mid horn with stock driver adapter?
  • Get more adventerous and go active perhaps with an Ashly xover and 3 t-amps?

Greg said that if want to use his horn with the stock crossovers I might have to pad down the midrange a bit. I'm leaning towards that as the most improvement for $1k.

Advice?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 50
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Still impressed by KHorns 5 months on. I've got them dialed into my room in the north and southeast corners about 21' apart. The listening chair is centered opposite in front of the fireplace which puts my ears about 8' from the speakers - nearfield for these speakers I suppose, but, the best I can do in this room and much better than along the short 13' wall. My ears are about 42" off the floor (bottom of the midhorn). This produces a very enjoyable "widescreen" soundstage. At first there was a bit of "hole in the middle" effect, but, I've removed the Khorn outer tophat thumb nuts and angled them in to focus the image on the listening position and this seems to have gotten rid of the hole. The couch sits between the speakers centered in the picture window. I've created as much symmetry as possible through careful measuring which helps balance the soundstage. No room treatments as yet unless you count a thin 6'x8' rug centered in front of the listening chair. If I switch the couch and chair 2 or 3 people can listen but only the person in the center of the couch is in the "sweet spot". The soundstage pulls immediately to left or right if my ears deviate from center.

Other components have remained the same. Marantz SA8260 SACD (higher rez) or Apple TV streaming wave files wirelessly (lower rez) to a Parasound P/HP SS preamp to VTL Tiny Triodes to stock 1990 KHorns.

Here's todays question. I have about $1k to spend on upgrading. What is my next step, big bang for the buck?

  • Better CD/SACD player?
  • Better interconnects (currently generic)?
  • Better preamp (maybe tubed like a Modwright, Audible Illusions, or the new DIY Audio DHT/OTL unit)?
  • Better speaker cables (currently zip cord)?
  • Universal passive crossover to replace stock 20 years old Klipsch unit?
  • Volti audio Tractix mid horn with stock driver adapter?
  • Get more adventerous and go active perhaps with an Ashly xover and 3 t-amps?

Greg said that if want to use his horn with the stock crossovers I might have to pad down the midrange a bit. I'm leaning towards that as the most improvement for $1k.

Advice?

Let me take a stab at an unpopular view, but it is my view.

It sounds like you have done the experiments on room position. These are important.

Crossover: The minor mod would be to refresh the caps (and maybe bypass them also) This is about $25 and will yield a small but noticeable improvement. The big mod would be to use an electronic crossover (behringer, rane, dbx, electrovoice - many different price points). Use steeper filters and time alignment. This is a real step up. The analog filters will not do the time alignment. You might get some eq'ing from it also (use this sparingly). Money spent on an electronic crossover will be a bigger impact compared to money spent on a expensive analog crossover IMO.

Electronics and interconnects, cables: unless there is something seriously wrong, these will offer relatively little improvement compared to the other things.

Mid horn & driver: This mode is worth the effort. I would not bother with the various Tractrix designs and I would move up to a larger throated driver. I would opt for a 1.4 in or 2 in driver (many choices and price points and there are a ton on eBay). I would combine this with a CD (constant directivity/dispersion) horn. These horns have an off-axis respsonse that is similar to the on-axis freq respsonse (they tend to have better overall control of the dispersion also). Such horns are made by Klipsch (commercial applications & very good also), Electrovoice, JBL, some Altec (manta ray series, not the 511 or 811), etc. There are many others. These will need "CD compensation" which is easily handled by the electronic crossovers.

Center channel: this will help with the fragile sweet spot that you describe (it is the most direct and effective solution also). I have used a Cornwall and even a Heresy as a center (let your budget decide). Don't worry too much about using a lesser speakers sonce it is going to be dialed down in level (searh the threads omn the summed center circuit, there may even be one on the electronic crossover).

Good luck and remember that many will disagree with me.

-Tom

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

This is about $25 and will yield a small but noticeable improvement.

I'll disagree. This is about $50 and will yield a very noticeable improvemen. [;)]

Forget wires and interconnects. Your next steps are either to swap out the passive crossovers and possibily the HF and mid horns, within budget up to but excluding the mid-horn swap, unless you go with extreme slope crossovers and that is already over-budget. Or, as Tom, said go active. I didn't have the nerve to do that a few years ago when I decided, but I think I'd have the guts to do that now.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark:

What kind of "improvement" are you looking for?

Are you trying to reduce the harshness of the midrange?and "smooth" out the system?

Are you trying to get more powerful bass?

Are you looking for more detail on the mids and up?

I like your monoblock tube amps. But without knowing what it is you are trying to do, its hard to recommend. One person's "great sound" is another man's poison.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for the input psg. I heard Greg's active test system with the Behringer, 3 T-amps directly connected to the drivers of his modded KHorns. It sounded very good and I like the idea of experimenting with Xrossover points, slopes and time alignment. Even if I eventually go back to passive I will have answered for myself what I can hear in these changes and what is important to me/what I like. If I want to step up in sound quality from the Behringer maybe the Ashly Protea 4.8SP as discussed here:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/t/140352.aspx?PageIndex=1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good question kwingylee! The stock Khorns now that they're dialed into my room are so much better than what I've had before I'm not sure how to answer. I don't really have buddies with audiofool aspirations/systems to compare or memories of listening sessions with systems that excelled in one area of another.

All those things you mentioned sound good [:)]

I would agree about the subjectivity of audio especially in the general population which haven't been exposed to and listened for different qualities of sound. To the extent that is less true among audiophiles and this subset of hornphiles in particular I ask for your advice about what's possible with the Khorn.

I listen to a wide variety of music at low to moderately loud levels both attentively in the "sweet spot" and as background. I especially listen for soundstage (can I imagine that I've been transported to the recording venue?), the tone of acoustic instruments (does a trumpet sound like itself and not like a cornet?), P.R.A.T. (that toe tapping get up and dance feeling), Coherence (is the individual instrumental line easy to follow and the ensemble interplay made plain?)

By way of further dialing in the current system, I noticed the other day that when I turn up the volume I get some distortion. It occured to me that having the monoblocks next to the left speaker on the floor might be leading to vibration feedback. I'm going to switch to some longer interconnects and speaker cables and get the monoblocks as far away from the speakers as possible and up on a stand with brass cone feet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mark:

Admittedly I have not done much to my khorns and have them in a smallest room so its not very ideal, but I could share some of the experience of what I tried.

My khorns are currently driven by a Scott 222C, a Thorens TD125MK1 TT and a Denon DVD player DWIW.

I have done mods to the AA crossovers. Morphing them into ALK Universals and moving the tab on the T2A transformer from 4 to 2.

I find that they did smoothed out but with lost a slight sense of dynamics. The harshness is largely reduced.

The best sound I achieved with them (with the original AA) was using a Conrad Johnson tube amp with a Kenwood 700C preamp. I am eventually going back to that setup. You are already driving yours with a decent set of tube monoblocks so that should give you some smoothness and warmth. You could try the McCormick preamp idea mentioned by others earlier. In my case, the Kenwood gave the system more dynamics and the detail retreival improved, as well as the bass/ A good synergistic preamp makes a difference - if that is what you want.

If you want more smoothness, you can try the ALK-Universals.

If you want even more dynamics, try a bigger tube amp.

The other upgrades, swapping out the horns etc., is too drastic and way too costly for me.

I don't think you can ever get the minimonitor type of imaging with the khorns. You can come cose with a Belle or LaScala center channel system.

Other forum members have this setup. I heard a great vintage Khorn/Belle Center system in the area that I can settle with for a long time.

If your are happy, why not just leave the system alone?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks for your thoughts and experiences kwingylee. The ALK-Universals may be in my future. More smoothness would be great and knowing that my sound is not being limited by 20 year old caps in the stock AK-2s - priceless.

I would like a wider sweetspot also but even at Greg's house with his V-Trac Khorns and more ideal room dimensions there was a definite sweetspot basically for 1 person not as narrow as mine though. Maybe Tom is right that center fill with a Heresy, Cornwall or LaScala would be the most direct solution.

Now playing Albinoni: Fantasie from Baroque Music for Brass and Organ.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



I would agree with Tom preston. I would go for a Large Format Mid Range Horn. I am using the 1.4 inch 288-16K altec with 1005B Altec Horns. There are others. Oris Horns are great too! -- Edgar Horns..... This was my biggest improvement in Audio - Replacing the Khorn Midrange. You can spend as little as $1,000 for the pair of drivers and Horns or a lot more. But it's worth it as most of the music is in the Midrange.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...