tubes klipsch and solid state

[quadklipsh]

The general notion says,

"Klipsch loves tubes "

Well

Any speaker would shine out pretty lovely with tubes ,

given that its a good 90 plus db Sensitivity speaker .

I heard a jbl xpl 200 with art audio maestro tube ,

rated at 100w each mono block.

And the bass and highs were breath taking !!!!

wot to talk of klipsch there ?;(

Anyways the point is ;

Wud a 300 dollar tube amp be better than any of those

solid states or integrated amps of similar price ?

Or wot ?

Please mention your experiences ,not generalizations ,thanks .

[tube fanatic]

You can't make the comparison based on cost; and comparing a tube to a solid state amp is comparing apples to oranges. Each will have a distinct sound. Then, tube amps can sound differently from one another based on the design- i.e. triode vs. pentode; single ended vs. push-pull. My experience is that any type of tube amp sounds better than any type of solid state amp; but, others may have the opposite view. The only way to know is to listen to different amps through your speakers in your listening room, and then decide for yourself.

[Southern]

I prefer to power the woofers with my SS Pioneer SX-1980 receiver and my mids and highs with my Dynaco ST-70 amp using my Dynaco PAS-2 tube pre-amp. I get the low end punch from the SS amp and the smooth mids & highs with the tube amp.

[russ69]

Generally I don't generalize..........but a good 500 buck used tube amp will sound better than a used 500 buck SS amp. Tube amp designs are simple and some of the entry level stuff is pretty good. On the other hand I find most of the entry level SS pretty frightening. YMMV. There are many exceptions, so it's really up to you to decide what your requirements are.

Thanx, Russ

[Groomlakearea51]

Really good SS amps will sound.... really good on Klipsch (in particular Heritage). Tubes can be funny... Not all tube amps sound really good on Klipsch. Not because of the inherent characteristics of the tube amp, but it's usually due to the tubes being used. Example: In the man cave's "Wall of Voodoo" there are (a) K'horns, ( Belles, and © Heresy's. Two types of amps, Sansui Pro-Series AU-11000's (rebuilt, etc.), and a Sansui AU-111 (very rare, very nice, 6L6GC based amp, rebuilt by NOSValves (Craig Ostbey).

When I first started fooling around with the AU-111 after Craig finished, there were still issues with hiss, hum, boomy bass, etc. But.... NOT related to Craig's work. It was the tubes themselves. After much consultation, and making sure the right tubes for the job were installed, it now sounds just about as good as the 11000's on the K'horns. No hiss, hum, boominess, etc. The tubes I use are from tubedepot.com; the 6L6GC's are JJ's; standard 6L6GC's, not the "extended", or KT's, etc. It's what the design called for, and are a "flat" response tube, not designed for overdriven guitar amps, etc. The difference was amazing. The pre sections are Sovtec (don't laugh, McIntosh uses Russian tubes...) and the ones used are the 12AX7LPS (long plate spiral filament design). Reduced the hum, hiss, etc down to almost nothing detectable unless you go up and stick your ear in the tweeter.... Then it's not easy... The coupling tubes are 12BH7's and are new RCA's. The only vintage/NOS tube is the 6AQ8 which is a Telefunken.

Alot of tube folks will probably think that using the new tubes is not the way to go. Unfortunately, reliable NOS/vintage tubes are hard to find, outrageously expensive, and reliability becomes an issue. The new tubes made by Sovtec, Genelex and JJ are very good. Certainly alot better than when they first started out a few years ago. I've tried NOS/vintage tubes over the last couple years, and after Craig spending all that time rebuilding the amp, and me getting frustrated with "noisy" vintage tubes, I decided to try "new" tubes. It works, at least for me.

The solid state amps? I'll be the first to admit that 90% of what was made, particularly after about 1980... was pretty crappy. Consumer oriented, cheap construction, crappy designs, ec., etc., ad nauseum. It's the old high end models from the reputable manufacturers (Sansui, Marantz, Pioneer, Yamaha, etc.) that if gone through, caps replaced, bias set, cleaned up, and generally brought back to spec, that will give tube amps a good run for their money.

Key thing in comparisons, often overlooked.... is the speakers themselves and the environment in which they are placed. You can have a crappy room, and a tube amp may sound pretty good because the amp's characteristics overcome shortcomings in the room design, etc. Same thing applies to solid state. In order to "compare", everything else should be "equal".

A real test of an amp is to play it with no bass, midrange, or treble tone controls used; keep everything "flat" - no "loudness switches" if so equipped. Pick 5 things you know. Classical, rock, female vocals, male vocals, and some organ music if you have any. Play the samples several times, then swap amps and see what the difference is. You might be surprised at what sound good and what "sucks"....

From discussions, it appears that most tube amp owners will play around with the tubes until they have it "just right" for their room, speakers, and the type of sound they want. Tubes are like that and can be "adjusted" by rolling the tubes. Solid state is not like that. Unfortunately, it's a WYSIWYG affair. Other than tone controls (which add "artifacts") to the sound, you're stuck. Lotta' stuff written about swapping caps, resistors, and the like in SS amp, but by and large all you really do is restore it to what is probably sounded like off the showroom floor, for better or worse.

But when you find a really good SS amp which performs the way it was designed, and is in it's operating specs, it can sound really, really good.

Some tips for SS owners when comparing SS amps, etc.: Make sure that all connections are clean and tight. Clean off the RCA connectors with some deoxit. Use good speaker wire of at least 14 guage; let the amp reach it's operating temperature. That's actually just as important as with a tube amp. Whenever I want to compare amps (which I'll do at least every few weeks for whatever reason....), I always turn the amps on with let's say a tuner input for at least an hour before "cranking them bad boys up". I've always been able to tell the difference between a cold start and a warmed up SS. Cold sound is "brittle". Try it a a low-moderate volume with something that's not too complex and you should be able to tell the difference between on for 2 minutes, vs on for a 1/2 hour.

Generally by design SS amps have much lower distortion than a tube amp. It's that design and the characteristics of low distortion that alot of folks see as "cold", bright, or not having that "tube like" warmth. C'est La Vie.... Really good SS amps don't have that characteristic as much, and usually due to the design. That's why cheap 100 WPC amps sound cheap and really good 50 WPC amps sound better.....Power is not everything, nor is a simple low distortion rating. Tubes inherently have a higher distortion, but it's the harmonics that enable us to hear it as "pleasing", "warm", etc.

All that rambling aside.... I swap the AU-111 around on the Klipsch on a routine basis; same with the AU-11000's. Just for fun, and sometimes I find a particular amp paired to a particular speaker with a particular tape, CD, etc. sounds better to me.

Don't forget about the room itself. Reflections, bass "wells", etc contribute to how an amp sounds, mostly for the worse. Lot's written about simple room treatment and using some bass traps in the high corners, some diffusion or absorption panels in the right places can make all the difference in the world.

[H]

[gartenman]

Unfortunately, reliable NOS/vintage tubes are hard to find, outrageously expensive, and reliability becomes an issue. The new tubes made by Sovtec, Genelex and JJ are very good. Certainly alot better than when they first started out a few years ago. I've tried NOS/vintage tubes over the last couple years, and after Craig spending all that time rebuilding the amp, and me getting frustrated with "noisy" vintage tubes, I decided to try "new" tubes. It works, at least for me.

My Blueberry came with JJ's and I thought it sounded really good until I replaced them with Bugle Boys. I'll nevver put JJ's in any of my gear again. Sources are available that are not hard to find, are reliable and do not cost an arm and a leg.I've pointed loads of people on this forum in the right direction. Dealing on Ebay or any online dealers is not the place to get vintage tubes.

[Groomlakearea51]

Gartenman's correct in that there are a number of sources for reasonably priced NOS/vintage tubes. The trick is always matching the tubes to the amp and the other tubes in the amp! LOL!!

I had no issue with the Amperex BB's (I have 2 of them), but it came down to overall cost for a complete matched set of the 12AX7's. As I said, and for the reasons stated, I suggested the 12AX7LPS's from Sovtec as a solid "start point". In that respect, it's a good method of getting a baseline for performance. JJ's for pre-tubes? Cannot say, but during my "enquiries", no-one with whom I spoke recommended JJ's 12AX7's; but they did recommend the ST's. The JJ's were recommended for use as a good "base set" of power tubes as the overall characteristics are well known.

My suggestion/ recommendation for a base starting point that is both reliable, and cost effective remains with a set of new manufacture tubes. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done the new tubes first, and then slowly, over time, tried different NOS/vintage tubes.

It is of course interesting that the Blueberry came with a "base level" set of..... JJ's.

Tubes are interesting, and if there is one thing I have learned is that just because a set of whatevers sound great on Lil' Johnny's amp, they may not sound the same on Lil' Bobby's.... It simply takes time to find the "set from heaven" and could cost a bundle if we are not careful.

Note to GM: No fear, it's just a matter of time before I get the "urge" to try another set, maybe NOS/vintage just to see what I get!!! LOL!!!

[gartenman]

No fear, it's just a matter of time before I get the "urge" to try another set, maybe NOS/vintage just to see what I get!!! LOL!!!

I know the largest tube wholesaler in the USA so if I can help let me know.

[fwphoto]

I had no issue with the Amperex BB's (I have 2 of them), but it came down to overall cost for a complete matched set of the 12AX7's. As I said, and for the reasons stated, I suggested the 12AX7LPS's from Sovtec as a solid "start point". In that respect, it's a good method of getting a baseline for performance.

. . .

My suggestion/ recommendation for a base starting point that is both reliable, and cost effective remains with a set of new manufacture tubes. If I had to do it all over again, I would have done the new tubes first, and then slowly, over time, tried different NOS/vintage tubes.

I'm thinking seriously about the "base set" starting point for my soon-to-be-completly-refurbed ST-70/PAT-3 combo. I'm still waiting for my tech to let me know what, in the way of tubes, he has to offer, but I'm thinking possibly a base set of mostly new tubes, first. Then as sets of NOS tubes become available to me, I'll try a few out.

With or without high $ NOS tubes, I suspect that when I get my tube gear back I'm going to fall in love again like I did when I first hooked them up to my Forte IIs. ;-) I can be critical, but even with the tubes my tech pulled out immediately as junk, it all sounded pretty good!

Frank W.