Forte I Crossover Upgrade

[zingo]

Thanks to the prodding of a number of you, I've decided to post my experience with a full crossover build.

Here are all the Jantzen parts I used for the build; MOX resistor, Z-Cap Standard for the woofer, Z-Cap Superior for the mid, Z-Cap Silver for the high, air core inductor for the high, and C-Coil (torrodial) inductor for the woofer. Also, Bob Crites autotransformers and silver solder throughout.

The stock XOs are on the left with the new ones on the right. I decided to use terminal strips to keep everything easy and make the XOs removeable if I ever want. The leads are a little longer than I would ideally want, but I makes for a nice balance of good looks and function.

Here are the XOs mounted on the baffle board in the bottom of the cabinet. They are screwed into the board for solid mounting, yet easy removeal.

Having just finished them yesterday and still burning them in, all I say for now is that they sound cleaner and have fuller and tighter bass. I'm excited to see what unfolds at the 100+ hour mark of burn-in.

[4tay]

Looks like a great project! I have not replaced coils myself in a while, I'd like to think that's next on the ajenda. I don't have the luxury of the xover board in the FII, I have a tiny circuit card in mine. Might be worth making a new board.

Where did the specification of 100 hours for burn in come from?

[SET12]

Nice work,

I have had my outboard networks for a number of yrs now and have had several brands of parts involved in my networks, the most recent are these C-Core Autotransformers I purchased off of e-bay from Germany they are very full sounding without the compression I hear in the stock units. I was using the Crites with larger cores over the stock units. The Crites also have greater transparency of the stock as well with greater capacity for volume. The C-Cores pictured do not appear to have the transparency of the Crites as well but in every other area I find the C-Cores superior. I made an adjustment to my SET amps coupling caps and was able to pull better transparency from the C-Cores while retaining there very good basic performance. They weren't cheap nor are they the most expensive but were $250 to get them here. The presentation they present remind me of some very good planer speakers but with more specific imaging. The C-Cores I have were made in -1db steps with 14 steps.

Its very interesting what can be had from a pair of Fortes.

SET12

[zingo]

Mine XOs had the tiny, printed circuit board as well, but I decided to build my own; just ditch the board. []

As far as the burn-in time goes on new components, I feel that 100 hours is a landmark where most of the burning-in has been done; probably 85%. In my experience, improvements may be heard up to +/- 250 hours, but they are much smaller than the initial 100 hours.

[4tay]

Mine XOs had the tiny, printed circuit board as well, but I decided to build my own; just ditch the board.

As far as the burn-in time goes on new components, I feel that 100 hours is a landmark where most of the burning-in has been done; probably 85%. In my experience, improvements may be heard up to +/- 250 hours, but they are much smaller than the initial 100 hours.

While I buy mechanical devices have a burn in of a number of hours, (drivers for example) electronics...not so much.

Capacitors form in seconds. Resistors heat once...and don't change value or properties. An inductor is basically a coil of wire. Perhaps ears are getting used to the sound vs the electronics actually changing. I am a skeptic because I just haven't seen any charactaristic differences in electronic components past a minute or two. I have seen no proof or credible supporting theory.

I believe that 100 hours is an audiophile myth, and arbitrary with nothing scientific to support it. I am an electronics break-in agnostic at this point. YMMV.

[zingo]

Luckily you don't have to listen to my broken in speakers... []

[4tay]

Luckily you don't have to listen to my broken in speakers...

And luckily they aren't in a double blind a/b/x to shatter the myth once and for all. (that's because I REALLY doubt that anyone has ever scientifically done this with a control, blind study etc.) I think this might make for a good episode of mythbusters!

[HarryO]

You fish your pole and I'll fish mine. Caps do have a burn in time. Some into the hundreds of hours.

IC Cables take time to burn in also. Dangit, maybe it's time for me to get on my pulpit again. And I've been behaving.

Harry

[HarryO]

BTW, "Howdy Jake"

hb27cp

[4tay]

You fish your pole and I'll fish mine. Caps do have a burn in time. Some into the hundreds of hours.

IC Cables take time to burn in also. Dangit, maybe it's time for me to get on my pulpit again. And I've been behaving.

Harry

I'd be happy to run a duplicate, unbiased and controlled experiment to recreate this. Do you have the parameters of the carefully controlled tests you ran to exclude personal bias and other subjective opinions? Could you cite the credible, unbiased source (like an audio engineer in a test facility) for exact reasons for cap burn in of hundreds of hours? I'd like to see the before and after measurements of the caps and wires as well. Thanks in advance.

[HarryO]

I've been doing electronics repairs and maintenance since the late '60s and I don't need a controlled environment or "Credible" unbiased proof to know what I can hear. The hearing's good btw.

And I've still yet to hear of a computer or readout that can hear. I'm not being a smartarse but there's a point you trust your ears. It's probably why you chose the system you're listening to.

[4tay]

I've been doing electronics repairs and maintenance since the late '60s and I don't need a controlled environment or "Credible" unbiased proof to know what I can hear. The hearing's good btw.

And I've still yet to hear of a computer or readout that can hear. I'm not being a smartarse but there's a point you trust your ears. It's probably why you chose the system you're listening to.

So, no measurements or proof exists, it's all opinion and "because I said so." That was the response I expected anyway. Much like the response for cryo treated cables, cable elevators, shun-mook discs and listening with the curtains drawn to reduce the photon pressure on the drivers.

If it's audible, it's measurable. Any actual change in sound is measurable. I know (and believe in) what can be measured. YMMV.

[zingo]

I don't want this to turn into an endless debate. Harry and I hear a difference and you don't 4tay; to each his own. I see no reason for anyone to try to discredit what makes someone else happy in the audio world. If it works for you great, and I find no pleasure in arguing with someone else something they don't want. You can be happy with what can be measured, and I will be happy with what I hear.

[SET12]

I don't want this to turn into an endless debate. Harry and I hear a difference and you don't 4tay; to each his own. I see no reason for anyone to try to discredit what makes someone else happy in the audio world. If it works for you great, and I find no pleasure in arguing with someone else something they don't want. You can be happy with what can be measured, and I will be happy with what I hear.

Jake,

I'm with you! I have a pair of stock Fortes here. I can tell you that the sound stage of my modified Fortes doubled in size over the stock Fortes along with a host of other improments with same electronics.

Is there a measurement for this? No!

[Cody_Mack]

I don't want this to turn into an endless debate. Harry and I hear a difference and you don't 4tay; to each his own. I see no reason for anyone to try to discredit what makes someone else happy in the audio world. If it works for you great, and I find no pleasure in arguing with someone else something they don't want. You can be happy with what can be measured, and I will be happy with what I hear.

Jake,

I'm with you! I have a pair of stock Fortes here. I can tell you that the sound stage of my modified Fortes doubled in size over the stock Fortes along with a host of other improments with same electronics.

Is there a measurement for this? No!

The item on the left; is that what my Forte I stock crossover looks like? Oh my! I haven't opened them up yet but am very soon.

Where do you mount the outboard crossover?

Very nice work, BTW. Will you describe the other components?

Rick

[4tay]

. I can tell you that the sound stage of my modified Fortes doubled in size over the stock Fortes along with a host of other improments with same electronics.

Is there a measurement for this? No!

Yes, there would be a measurment as it would reflect in the output of the speaker. There are audio engineers that could measure it, as in frequencies present/in different dispersion. Just move the microphone and measure a bit more peripherally than in the center, or use more than 2 mics. Change in output manifests itself physically...frequency, pressure or both. This is based on changes in resistance, capacitance and other parameters. Perhaps measuring with a new form of fluid dynamics---measuring the fluid (air) as it's pushed out of the apertures.

There is nothing mystic or magic, but audiophelia is indeed a religion all it's own that true belivers wish to cloak in mysticism. Note that I did not say some changes didn't take place... but at the same time, 3 responses that said changes cannot be measured/have not been measured/don't need to be measured. Magazines won't publish certain measurements for fear of losing ad revenue. This is especially true for wire or component burn in. Over charging speaker cable and IC companies would take it in the shorts. But as was stated, it would be an endless argument akin to a thoeology debate. Wire burns in! No, it doesn't ears do! etc etc...

"Hey! I just noticed that these new phosphorescent, cryo treated speaker feet are so good, it's like hearing a window through space and time. I can hear clouds brushing up against each other! "

Like a religion, there are those that believe the force is a mystical energy that flows through everything. It was actually revealed that it is a measureable quantity of midicholrians in the bloodstream. One day, some credible source will tackle this topic and the audio sith lords will be very upset when it happens.

It is interesting to note that double blind ABX testing that has been done, including a $10,000 prize offered--after 2,000+ tests...no one has won. No golden ears could hear the difference. When the facts and science appear....so do the excuses. "It's rigged!" "It's not MY system!" " I need to see what I am listening to!" and so on. The force, all over again.

I do not believe in wire or electronic component burn in past a few seconds. But there is no more need to preach to the choir, or beat the pulpit because neither side would be converted.

[Deang]

New people should learn to use the search function, it would save us old people from having to repeat ourselves.

Metallized film types take 10-20 hours to settle down. You can read why at Bob Stout's page at the LDSG site.

"Bob's Autoformers" are made my Universal Transformer -- these are the same people who made them for Klipsch. The only major difference is that the new units are bifilar wound. An autoformer is just a tapped inductor -- a long piece of magnet wire wrapped around a core. The units from Germany are basically the same thing. I don't see how there could be much of any difference in sound since they appear to be built just like the units from UT. There might be a subtle difference, but I sure don't see how it could be of the magnitude described. What might make a real difference is removing the core -- an air core autoformer would be cool, but most probably wouldn't make the investment if they were available.

SET12, I think you've posted those pictures over a hundred times and I've never made comment, mostly because I can't think of a way to offer criticism without sounding mean-spirited. I'm not much impressed with the build: the coil for the tweeter circuit is the wrong value, and your placement of the coil is about in the worst place possible. Also, none of your connections are gasless (neither properly crimped or soldered).

[4tay]

New people should learn to use the search function, it would save us old people from having to repeat ourselves.

Metallized film types take 10-20 hours to settle down. You can read why at Bob Stout's page at the LDSG site.

SET12, I think you've posted those pictures over a hundred times and I've never made comment, mostly because I can't think of a way to offer criticism without sounding mean-spirited. I'm not much impressed with the build: the coil for the tweeter circuit is the wrong value, and you're placement of the coil is about in the worst place possible. Also, none of your connections are gasless (neither properly crimped or soldered).

I was hoping you'd chime in, I am familiar with your work over the years. And I am glad there is a reference. 10-20 hours for that type of cap I can buy, mainly because of material heat and conductivity. But then again, you provide reason, and reference not just "Use the force...search your feelings...you know it's true" type answers.

The proper placement and isolation of the coil and construction is a good call!

FWIW: I was searching the net for references over coffee, and I contacted two audio engineer buddies for some input. I won't repeat what they said, except the salient point: "Audiophilia is like a religion, so it's a waste of time trying to convert anyone or argue with the facts. "

With that...to each his own belief.

[zingo]

Here is a picture of where I mounted the boards, and yes, your stock Forte crossover either looks like his on the left, or mine on the left of my second picture.

[Southern]

Thanks for the post Jake.

Did you do both speaker at the same time or did you do an A/B comparison with the stock/modified crossover?

Did you glue the components to the wafer board? it's hard to tell from the photos.

Did you use stand-offs when mounting your new crossover board so the foam doesn't get compressed?

What type of audio gear are you using?

Sorry I sound like a 3 year old with so many questions.

When I modded my forte crossovers, I set them up for bi-amping so I can use a tube amp for the mids/highs and a SS amp for the lows.

Nice work, hope you will get many hours of enjoyable listening.