Punch in the bass

[joessportster]

Here's a ??? Can speaker design / effeciency make up for pure power when it comes to creating punch in the bass department ???

Joe

[Chris A]

Here's a ??? Can speaker design / effeciency make up for pure power when it comes to creating punch in the bass department ??? Joe

This is sort of a loaded question. I'll turn it around - "Can you make up for inefficient speaker design using more power?"

1) If you are talking about Khorns vs. something else with a lot of amplifier power, then I'd recommend time-aligning the Khorn bass with the midrange and tweeter (using an active crossover). Then think about using false corners that seal really well with the Khorn LF bin.

2) If you are talking about direct-radiating subs, then I'd say "yes, you can get punchy bass, but it's pretty artificial, as in 'not accurate'." That means it is injecting a lot of intermodulation distortion.

3) If you are talking about a really low efficiency speaker design like a low-efficiency dipole or an electrostat, then the answer (in my humble opinion) is "No".

4) If you are talking about buying a lot of amplifier power anyway, my response would be, "Why? What are you trying to achieve?"

Chris [^o)]

[joessportster]

I am using a full horn system which includes edgarhorn titans with siesmic sub. The 3 way is powered by a single 45 amp (2 watts per channel) and the sub is powered by a plate amp. The crossover is passive. I beleive my bass is very good but it has been stated it lacks punch because a low power set amp cannot drive a 12" mid bass unit properly. My system is approx 107 db effecient. So the question is can effecient horn speakers create bass punch with low power amplification. I personally beleive they can produce punch and that my buddy is used to over excentuated bass and so now when he hears bass that is closer to natural he perceives it as lacking. Joe

[garyrc]

Here's a ??? Can speaker design / effeciency make up for pure power when it comes to creating punch in the bass department ??? Joe

This is sort of a loaded question. I'll turn it around - "Can you make up for inefficient speaker design using more power?"

If you are talking about direct-radiating subs, then I'd say "yes, you can get punchy bass, but it's pretty artificial, as in 'not accurate'." That means it is injecting a lot of intermodulation distortion.

Chris

In a good speaker with horn loaded bass (such as Klipschorns, Jubilees, etc.) with low distortion (IM / FM /etc.) due to very little cone excursion needed to produce high sound pressure levels in the bass, I think efficiency does make up for pure amplifier power. Thus, one of the above mentioned speakers in a corner and a good 100 watt RMS amplifier may produce the same amount of acoustical power in the room as a "typical" speaker (about 90 db @ 2.83 v ~ "1 watt" @ 1M) being fed somewhere between 800 watts and 3,000 watts, depending on whose figures you trust, if the typical speaker could take it..

"Punch in the bass department" is tricky. Is this punch at 40, 50, or 60 Hzs (possible fundamental frequencies of a bass drum, depending on size and taughtness of the head, etc.)? A speaker with a peak there may sound more punchy, one with a dip, less so. Same for the room, where the speakers are, and where you are. Several people have said that the Cornwall II or III both have more bass punch of the Rock & Roll variety than the Klipschorns. This could well be true, but it should be noted that PWK's own specs listed the IIs as having 3 times the Frequency Modulation as the Klipschorns for the same sound pressure level in the room. Both of these figures would be far below that of "floppy cone" speakers over the same bandwidth. My Klipschorns have incredible punch when the tympani and tam-tam play on the Chrystal Clear Recordings version (on Sonic Seasonings) of Fasnfare for the Common Man. Incredible when being fed about 6 watts, etc. When being fed peaks of about 23 watts with this recording, my pants legs flap in the wind produced, and if you lean on the sturdy desk in the room, you can feel it going out of square. No kidding.

[Chris A]

I personally beleive they can produce punch and that my buddy is used to over excentuated bass and so now when he hears bass that is closer to natural he perceives it as lacking.

Okay, so now I'm a bit more calibrated to your question.

Yes, I agree with your assessment - many people get used to listening to high-distortion bass and think that it what bass should sound like. I've run into that before.

I beleive my bass is very good but it has been stated it lacks punch because a low power set amp cannot drive a 12" mid bass unit properly.

It's possible, but the easiest way to know is the check for amplifier clipping under those conditions. It will show up as dramatically increased higher-frequency harmonics (I believe that they will predominantly be even harmonics for tube gear) during those peaks, not only in the mid-bass but also into the midrange and tweeter frequencies.

Chris

[garyrc]

I like Cask05's "clipping answer:"

"It's possible, but the easiest way to know is the check for amplifier clipping under those conditions. It will show up as dramatically increased higher-frequency harmonics (I believe that they will predominantly be even harmonics for tube gear) during those peaks, not only in the mid-bass but also into the midrange and tweeter frequencies."

Some tests have indicated that some tube amps will pass brief peaks of 10 dB ( about 10X) higher than RMS without clipping, along with much harmonic distortion, but "nice" even order harmonics. So, if you have amps that are 2 watts RMS, it's conceivable that the peaks are at 20 watts, and unclipped, if they are brief enough. With 107 dB @ 2.83v @ 1M, that's a lot. Fudging around a chart I have (Dope from Hope, vol 16, #1 revised 1980) to adjust for your efficiency, 2 watts, out in a 3,000 cu ft room, might be about 102 dB, with peaks @ 112 dB. I have ocassionally used more (see my previous post) but not often.

Just out of curiosity, where does your 12" mid bass speaker come in (lower crossover point)?

.

[joessportster]

Mid bass horn is running from 80 hz up to 500 hz is my understanding my room is 23X17. with 7.5 foot ceilings. Joe

[tube fanatic]

Mid bass horn is running from 80 hz up to 500 hz is my understanding my room is 23X17. with 7.5 foot ceilings. Joe

Have you run a frequency response curve for the triode amp which is driving the mid bass horn? It would be interesting to know what it is doing at around 80 Hz vs 500 Hz.

[SET12]

Here's a ??? Can speaker design / effeciency make up for pure power when it comes to creating punch in the bass department ???

Joe

Hi Joe,

Two areas for punch that are often overlooked IMO are speaker inductors and amplifier power supply DCR.

I thought you might find this interesting, I might add I own pair of these inductors and I completely agree with the comments made here.

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/14/147282.html

As to amplifiers, IMO high impedance chokes really destroy the impact of a good SET. My DCR path to the transformer is a mere 3.5 ohms I have impact that is felt not only in the seat of pants but heard across a street with doors and windows closed as my wife tells me.

Its really though a system thing IMO when it gets right down to it. Every component has to have a solid foundation just as my Modified Sony X77ES CDP that I use Direct with Burson Discrete Op Amps and 150,000uf's of Muse caps that put the pedal to the medal. 2 watts on your speakers is like 20 watts on mine. But I do it with Just 10.

But can a 2 watt have slam? you bet , if its design so that its supply can move energy rather than hinder it as most SET's do IMO.

You might say I do some very controversial stuff, but I get results.

I need no sub, IMO the punch with the North Creek Inductors has greater range for punch and they were worth every penny.

Like a Jack Hammer to 30hz - 700hz

SET12

[SWL]

Like a Jack Hammer to 30hz - 700hz

.....He's not joking!

Great to hear from you Dan. []

[garyrc]

Mid bass horn is running from 80 hz up to 500 hz is my understanding my room is 23X17. with 7.5 foot ceilings. Joe

• Although 80 to 500 includes the bandwidth of the highest SPL on the average, a great deal of "bass punch" may be below that. The fundamental frequencies of bass drums (untuned "punchers") are usually somewhere between 40 to 70Hz. I think the Telarc "big bass drum" (used in Classical / Romanticist recordings) was below that. In my old stereo recording class (c 1974) we were told to regard the fundamental of the kick drum to be 40 Hz, and start EQing there, if desired. Of course, both the overtones and the "beater hitting leather" smack (rather than boom) are higher.
• Your room is almost the exact same size as ours (ours is 2 feet longer, and 3 inches higher). We are not in love with the room. It has less bass from all plausible locations than the room in our former house, and sounds a bit more "confined." You might not have these problems at all; in our case, Khorns don't like low ceilings, except in a few installations, like Artto's. We moved the listening chairs all over the place, looked at room modes on a room mode calculator, ran some tests from several listening positions (with a less than great meter), consulted Bolt's contour, etc. We are raising the ceiling and sloping it. We are putting lintels in the crawl space to further stiffen the floor. We tried this last ploy in our former house (based on an article in an audio magazine), and it increased our bass by quite a bit, and also lowered the Klipschorn's roll off point from just below 40 to lower than 31.5 (I say "lower than," because the test disk we were using back then stopped at 31.5, and the Khorns actually developed a small, clean, bump at that frequency after we put in the lintels. As I said in an old post, the crawl space looked like Stonehenge. When all of this is finished (September?) we may have to vary diffusion, absorbtion, and possibly consider bass traps.

[joessportster]

Some good info here, thanks for the responses. Joe

[SET12]

Like a Jack Hammer to 30hz - 700hz

.....He's not joking!

Great to hear from you Dan.

Thanks Scott,

Hearing is believing as you have.

Dan