I Tested Five Different Tweeters In My Khorns

[ZAKO]

Its the JBL Everest II D66000.. and costs $60,000

[deafbykhorns]

Yikes, sorry I asked! [] They dont list them on the jbl site but show a picture. I guess if you have to ask, you cant afford it.

[psg]

It's prominentlylisted on the Japan JBL site where they areactively sold. Can you even get them here?

http://www.harman-japan.co.jp/jbl/hifi/dd66000/

[ZAKO]

Yes you can get them here through Harmon JBL Synthisis,,,USA...They also make a lower price version called K2,,99000...only $30,000 pr. How many do you want???

[Al Klappenberger]

Roberts,

I have calibration data on all my instrument microphones. Do you have calibration data on your ears? I strongly suggest that you see a hearing specialist to check your hearing. Extremely loud sounds such as hand sanders, joiners and power saws will damage a person hearing over time. You value and use you hearing so often to give us your expert opinion on so may audio innovations that you certainly should take care of it and monitor it's health!

Al K.

[greg928gts]

Roberts,

I have calibration data on all my instrument microphones. Do you have calibration data on your ears? I strongly suggest that you see a hearing specialist to check your hearing. Extremely loud sounds such as hand sanders, joiners and power saws will damage a person hearing over time. You value and use you hearing so often to give us your expert opinion on so may audio innovations that you certainly should take care of it and monitor it's health!

Al K.

Klap,

You should try listening to music sometime, it IS really what this hobby is about after all.

Have you ever even owned a pair of Khorns?

Greg

[DrWho]

But I didn't change the filter parameters.

Why not? It takes me hours to dial in a crossover for audiophile quality...heck, just flattening the passband takes a good 30min, and then getting proper acoustic summation at the xover takes 30min if you really want to find the best xover point....and that point is going to be very different with different horns. So that's already one hour to set the basics before adressing the power response of the system, which is where the real fun begins....

For what it's worth, I can get any descriptor to happen with all of the horns you tried out. It's simply a matter of voicing. So what then is the refinement? That you find something you like with a narrow selection of music and a random xover? I honestly just don't understand the goals here.

[Al Klappenberger]

Roberts,

You should try listening to LIVE music sometime. How else can you know what it sounds like?

Have you ever owned Belles? You sell horns to Belle owners!

Al K.

[radiogram]

This thread has made me realize that I myself is now confuded on how to match sentivity between different drivers (be it instrument or ears or whatever).

A driver's sensitivity is not constant. Lets us say that Tweeter A has a an average sensitivity of 106dB in the 4-6KHz range and average sensitivity of 99dB in the 10-15KHz range (Somewhat like K77). Tweeter B has an avergae sensitivity of 103dB in the 4-6KHz range but has an average seneitivity of 101dB in the 10-15KHz range (somewhat like Beyma).

Now what band will one use to match sensitivity? If I use 4-6KHz band to match up that means Tweeter A will be at 96dB in 10-15KHz range and Tweeter B will be at 101dB in the same range. Then Tweeter A will sound let us say lacking in air whatevr jargon that is. Alternativley if I use 10-15KHz band then Tweeter A will be +5dB more than Tweeter B in the 4-6KHz rnage and will subjectivley sound brighter or in your face or more detailed as one may choose to describe it or conversly Tweeter B may sound dull or more listenable or refined etc.

So it may be important to specify what are the sensitvities in the whole pass band first and then explain the choice of what reference frequence or bandwidth that was used to match sensitivities.

What do you guys think?

[DrWho]

What do you guys think?

That's why you gotta flatten the passband of the driver in the xover....then the effective sensitivity is the same everywhere. Afterwards you can tweak to taste to offset the power response nonlinearity.

[Al Klappenberger]

Gram,

You have identified a question I have also considered. My solution is simply to make a plot of the entire range of the driver and look at the area of interest! I usually ignore published specifications. There is also the question of where to take the measurement. Do you do it at 1 meter from the mouth of the horn or 1 meter from the driver. After all, the horn mouth is what lines up with the front of the speaker, but horns are all different lengths! What distance do you call the standard? This is one reason I quit making the original network I designed for the Cornwall. It had no way to adjust the level of the drivers.

I actually have to agree with Dr. WHO on this one.

Al K.

[greg928gts]

You should try listening to LIVE music sometime

I worked for fifteen years mixing live sound and I regularly listen to live music of all types.

Have you ever owned Khorns? It's a simple question.

I'm thinking of developing an upgraded fuel-injection system for the Ford Mustang that I can sell to the general public, but I don't ever intend to own or drive a Ford Mustang.

Greg

[DrWho]

I worked for fifteen years mixing live sound and I regularly listen to live music of all types.

Wow, can you believe I've got you beat with 18 years of experience? []

During that time, I've come to the conclusion that about 98% of sound engineers are totally deaf and wouldn't know good sound or good music if it slapped them in the face. I also think it's interesting to note that every sound guy would probably say the same thing...It's just a big fest of everyone saying everyone else sucks - probably in an attempt to justify/alter one's own relative position in the industry.

So all that to say, claiming live sound experience means nothing either way to me until I hear it for myself.

Though I will say that "mixing live sound" often does not mean listening to live instrumentation (ie, no PA).

[DrWho]

I usually ignore published specifications.

I'm not even sure if it's worth calling them "specs"....more like marketing material hooplah []

What distance do you call the standard?

I just measure the acoustic center and then I don't need to worry about measuring from the driver or the mouth....and in fact, the acoustic center isn't always where the driver is located either....and it can even shift when you go off-axis - now that's a crazy one to think about....

[greg928gts]

I honestly just don't understand the goals here

I know. I think it's because you are not thinking about the question of 'what tweeter will sound good with my Khorns' in the same way that most people do. You are an engineer and you look at these things in a completely different way. Most people who own Khorns and listen to music on them every once in a while don't care about the engineering or technical aspects that go into making the speakers the way they are. It's not something they want to spend time trying to understand. If someone wants to upgrade the drivers in their Khorns, they simply want the type of information that a friend would give them when making a recommendation on what computer to buy.

The techno-gibberish just confuses people, and when that's all they are exposed to, many are likely to just give up and say the heck with it - my speakers sound fine the way they are.

What is more helpful to people like that, is to have a friend say that they tried several different tweeters in their Khorns and this is the one I liked the best, and here's why. That type of information is of much more use to them, and they feel good about the process, it is not confusing, it's good communication on a personal level. This is my business model. I know there are some tech-heads out there who just can't wrap their brains around the idea that choosing anything audio doesn't always involve a techical analysis of every tiny detail, but the fact is, that's how most audio decisions are made. I'm in touch with my customer base, and I know what kind of experience they would like to have when buying audio equipment, and I'm providing that service to them.

So the goal of my five-tweeter test is simple. To "bump shoulders" with my customers, and in a very personal way, tell them about my experience with my own Khorns and what I've heard, and then let them decide which way they'd like to go. For the people out there who want to over-analyze the way I'm doing my work, and put me down because of it, I won't be deterred by your mean-spiritedness. The personal attacks on me don't phase me a bit, and they certainly don't hurt my business. If anything, people see right through it and it only serves to reinforce my way of doing business.

Greg

[DrWho]

The techno-gibberish is just the language I'm most comfortable communicsting in....the only reason I chimed in is because I was hoping you might see the light that every subjective response you mentioned could be achieved with each driver you "tested" given the context within which you made the comparison. The techno-gibberish topics I brought up are all things that have a very audible impact on the sound, but the impact can subjectively go one way or the other depending on the specific behavior of each driver. That's why it's impossible to subjectively discuss why every tweeter sounds different. It's just that the levels of refinement being implied just aren't very refined in my book, and my current technical understanding knows for a fact that you're not getting lucky and arriving there solely by ear - especially knowing the methodolgy involved. I really don't intend for these comments to come off as demeaning or a pissing match or whatever...I would just like to see at least the basics being carried out first....and again, it's because the basics can have such a wildly dramatic impact on the sound. Maybe I should take some measurements of a single tweeter and then demonstrate how your current methodology can result in every subjective description you listed....simply by picking an arbitrary xover point and dialing in amplitide by ear. Or maybe it would be more interesting to have a gathering where lots of people can hear it for themeselves. The methods to arriving to a flat tonal balance are probably uninteresting to an end user, but I've no doubt most audiophiles understand frequency response and can at least somewhat relate to a frequency response measurement. I have no doubt though that they will hear the tonal shifts that I find very distracting and unpleasing.

In summary, it's like this....your tonal balance is likely +/- 8db (so 16dB swing in some areas) - that's like 3/4 of a turn on a tonal balance knob. With a little massaging, that could easily be brought into +/- 1dB. Which would you prefer? You probably don't notice it though because you put on your soundguy hat and twiddle your knobs until it sounds as good as it can...so at the very least, you've probably got the tonal balance centered.

Anyways, do whatever you want with your business. I'll just continue looking for others to have a more interesting technical discussion....and yes, the engineering aspect of audio is almost just as fun as listening to the music

[greg928gts]

and yes, the engineering aspect of audio is almost just as fun as listening to the music

I'm sure it is, especially when you're able to carry on a meaningful discussion in that realm, unlike myself!

When I say techno-gibberish, I don't mean it in a derogatory way. I know with all the mudslinging that's been going on lately it could easily be taken that way. For me it's just a concise way of describing how paragraphs of technical information by an engineer can read like an unknown language to the casual audiophile, and really end up being of little or no use to them.

Your last post illustrates my point exactly about the differences we have in our approach to audio. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong, just that there are different ways of going about analyzing the sound of components. I simply plugged in different tweeters into the top of a Khorn and listened to the results. I then put what I heard into words and presented it to my customers just as though they were a friend, interested in what I've done. It's an artistic and subjective approach. I've made assumptions that the manufacturers of these tweeters have done the basic engineering and testing necessary to bring the product to market, and provide it to us to use. I'm simply taking those products and plugging them into a specific system and analyzing what I hear, just like any casual audiophile would like to do. What the casual audiophile does not want to do is spend a lot of money buying five different pairs of tweeters to figure out which they might like!

I think you are correct, that most audiophiles understand basic frequency response plots. I also think that most audiophiles realize that just because one tweeter tests lower in distortion, that doesn't necessarily make it the better sounding tweeter. So I would submit that analyzing tweeters based solely on testing the tweeters for a number of parameters, really doesn't provide good information to the casual audiophile. It might be very interesting and relevant information for a techie, and I'm sure there are people who would in fact, base their decision to buy a particular tweeter on that technical information, and there's nothing wrong with that. But it's not the only way, and I personally don't think it's a very good way to choose a tweeter.

Greg

[fini]

Maybe we can change gears a little and talk about the best way to hang a Dutch door...[]

[sfogg]

"But it's not the only way, and I personally don't think it's a very good way to choose a tweeter. "

Neither is just plugging a bunch of tweeters into a speaker and listening without trying to optimize each of them. Did you even try swapping phase to each of the tweeters to see if that better integrated the tweeter or not?

A
decent tweeter implemented well will sound better then the 'best'
tweeter in the world used poorly. If one then optimizes the 'best'
tweeter things will change radically.

Shawn

[radiogram]

Greg:

I think what everybody is trying to say is that while ultimately we all listen and decide, there is a basis and foundation that precedes listening i.e. sound (no pun intended) principles of physics, acoustics, filter theories, electrical engineering etc.

I certainly appreciate your passion with KHorns and sharing with people with your subjective experiences, of course you are not the only one, there are a tons of others who do so and not all of them may be anymore technically qualified than you are. However, any subjective analysis without precise understanding & adjustment and covering of all technical basics (at least as we know of today) could mislead one i.e. the evaluator himself, in deciding what is better or worse.

Sure enough, if everything is based on technicality alone then no amplifier or speaker manufacturer would even bother having a listening evaluation or a listening team. They will simply apply theory, build, measure it and ship it out. But we all know that is not the case. They do listen.

But in what sequence? They just do not start building arbitrarily by just listening and tweaking endlessly. They start with some technical fundamentals and theory. This is the BASIS. Listening is only next, to validate and tweak further. If this were not the case and ultimately only ears matter then I am sure these companies can make more profit by hiring anyone who can just tweak circuits by trial and error. But again they all have EEs, Physicists, etc in their R&D (I am not talking about mushrooming internet based audio compaies that just rebrand cookie cutter designs). Why should they bother when they can pay someone else a lot less to just listen and decide? After all they are business houses who sell to customers. PWK himself has a formal background in Physics and Engineering. Even Amar Bose who does not publish specs has a PHD from MIT! (one many people hate, but I do not).

Anyway, all things we use in life, audio, cellphones, automobiles, microwaves, etc – they were not created by some accident by some non-technical person. They were all out of inventions from scientists, Mathematicians, physicists, Engineers, etc. The CD format we all listen to these days is nothing but an application of mathematicians (Fourier, Nyquist, etc). Sure if a common man looks at Fourier transform it is total gibberish and techno babble. But digital recording and digital telecommunications work only on this principle and not by some accident or tweaking. There is a good scientific reason why medform works for diabetics, why Tylenol helps headache and all these came out only from science and principles that are measurable. Should a diabetic just go by his gut feeling on how he feels or should he periodically check his glucose numbers?

The point about do not bother me with anything technical but I want only what the ears say, IMO probably applies to people who are casual listeners and mostly do background or party listening. I have some friends that prefer their HT in a box to my Klipsch’es and even over a well regarded monitors I owned in the past (Proac Response 2). Of course their rationale was the same – I do not care about what technical explanation you give, my my ears like my HT in a box. That is their choice, they are entitled to it and is fine with me.

But the point here is, when we are talking about people who own speakers like KHorns/B&Ws/Quads/ etc, these are a different sect of people who are a lot more discriminating (I am not of course including rich snobs who just own these only to show off just because they can afford it, without any real passion or understanding of audio – If one stuffs a radio shack into a audiophile suit with mega buck price tag they may buy it and be quite happy and proud).

The tweeters you have tested themselves exhibit so much variation in not just sensitivity (and that too one that varies at different frequencies) but overall response characteristics, pass band band-width, roll characteristics, etc. Having a same network to judge all of them may not be fair to all of them and may bias you unfairly even if that is not your intent. The ideal thing would be to customize network for each driver separately with some common performance goals that again is within the limits of all the drivers and then compare them as not just tweeters but as driver-network pair. But this requires understanding what to measure, how to and needs precise caliberated instruments. And even when done so, need to be recommended as a tweeter cum specific network combination as a pair.

So, the bottom line here is while we can all say ultimately we tend to judge by ears, the fact is that we will not even have that luxury to say so if not for science & measurements to begin with.

Cheers