Should I buy these Vintage Klipsch?

[cheric]

I'm a purist, if it isn't the way Paul built it, it is flawed as far as I am concerned!

Bravo! .....That was the reason we bought Klipsch speakers. Not an empty box with Klipsch name and any drivers of your choice to go with it.

Astra,

Congrats. Those are beautiful speakers.

Could you take some pics of these Belles? The experts may be able to tell you more on them with the info on the back.

[Jeff Matthews]

I disagree on people's advice not to worry about "upgrade." It can be misunderstood. You should probably get Bob Crites to re-cap them back to factory spec. It will open up the high end and make it far more crisp. The caps degrade over years, and the high end loses its edge over time.

I was a skeptic until people convinced me to try it on my KHorns. Crites' work did wonders for the high end, and his price is right.

[Ironsave]

I disagree on people's advice not to worry about "upgrade." It can be misunderstood. You should probably get Bob Crites to re-cap them back to factory spec. It will open up the high end and make it far more crisp. The caps degrade over years, and the high end loses its edge over time.

I was a skeptic until people convinced me to try it on my KHorns. Crites' work did wonders for the high end, and his price is right.

I agree with Jeff AND Twisted Crank.....

Twisted Crank said listen to them awhile; then recap and decide if you like it or not.

I believe Bob Crites' cap upgrades are a great bang for buck investment, and if worried about resale; keep the old ones somewhere safe.

I want my speakers to sound new AND like PWK intended.......

And yes; the girls are pretty. Cannot tell from your picture but if the wood is dry/ fading, search the forum about things like Watco oil and linseed oil/ mineral spirits.

CONGRATS!

[JL Sargent]

I guess I don't see replacing "bad" caps in a speaker an upgrade. That's what I call required maintenance.[]

[Ironsave]

[]

[HarryO]

I guess I don't see replacing "bad" caps in a speaker an upgrade. That's what I call required maintenance.

like JL said. Just normal maintenance. Recommended here also.

[garyrc]

Some caps age more than others. Some (including at least one at Klipsch) say Mylar caps don't age much at all, unless subjected to environmental or physical abuse. One factor would be the age of your Belle Klipsches. I would probably listen every day for several months with all kinds of music before considering changes.

Belle Klipsches, like La Scalas, roll of below about 50 Hz. For many disks, this would not be an issue. The Belles seem to make up for a lack of bass reach by having extrodinary dynamics in the bass. My center channel Belle actually sounds better than my Klipschorns around 70 Hz or so, but then the Klipschorns are better below (and both have cleaner, more dynamic bass within their appropriate range than nearly any other speaker I've heard). Later on you could add a "fast" subwoofer, but if you do, try cutting it in very low (mine sounds best coming in at 40 Hz).

[garyeanderson]

You can see on the back of this Belle Klipsch that it has been stamped on the bottom of the High Frequency cab nearly dead center just above the Walnut riser. It is stamped right into the end grain of the lumber core plywood. The Stamp agrees with the tag that is adheared to the back of the bass bin. Does anyone know what the initial (G) in the upper right of the tag signifies? I see it on most of the labels I see and are different from the speaker to speaker even sequential ones.

[astralography]

The paper decal is gone, but you can see the RP at the bottom left of the picture, but I don't see anything engraved after that. It would be interesting

to know how old these are... I am still deciding if I should fully refinish them up before they get hauled into the house. Looking forward to listening to them here soon. I have another tube amp on the way a vintage tube Fisher X100.. so that might be the match for it.

How do these sound in the mid range? Are there any holes or has anyone tried running an extra set in parallel other than a sub?

[astralography]

I have always thought a 15" woofer is really required to get a natural sounding low end

[rjrbass]

Belle Klipsch used the AB crossover from Feb. 1983 to Oct. 1983. In October 1983 the K-55-M was introduced, along with the AB-2 crossover. In May 2001 the K-55-X was introduced with the AB-3 crossover. This dates your Belles between Oct. 1983 and May 2001, since the midrange is the K-55-M. I would continue looking for the S/N to be stamped in the edge of the wood on the back of the cabinets. Often you will also see USA. The S/N will reveal the year and sometimes the date of manufacture.

[astralography]

Thanks Richard, that is helpful..

I am waiting for banana plug - spade adapters to come so I don't have to strip off my existing wires... they should arrive any day. It will be fun to hook

these up to my existing set up... Scott tube amp and Music Hall 5.1 TT.

With the discussion here about the Belle's lack of a comparative bass frequency to other models, is this primarily do to the reflective design of the enlosed woofer cabinet? Or the way the cross overs are wired? It would seem to me that with a reflective speaker set up, the wood itself is going to be taking on more of the vibration than a direct speaker through into the room. Am I close or way off base (bass lol) here?

I think someone mentioned success using a sub set at 40 hz?

Also, has anyone experimented running an additional set of speakers in parallel with any positive results.. I know I am getting ahead here, but I tend to

experiment a lot with speaker set up, positioning, and blending.

My current set up is a blend of 5.2 and 3.2 running in parallel with a sub.. and the results are excellent.. but I still would like a bit more richness on the low end, and I suspect the Bella's will offer that with a pair of 15" woofers in the room

[Ironsave]

I can tell you I had a set of 5.2s up until recently.

They are a great speaker, but the Belles are probably going to exceed your expecations.....

( My Heresies have more detail, definition, and clarity than the 5.2s did; so the Belles should be able to at least double that).....

Cannot wait to hear how you like them....

Iron.

[Jeff Matthews]

I wouldn't even worry about bass response. A lot of the talk concerning its low end is true, but it's really quite good just the same. Now that all that has been said, you're probably already tainted and ready to expect a sound that could go lower. Sure, you can go lower with a sub. But it's really not all that necessary.

A good test is not for you to be the judge now that your mind has been polluted, but instead, don't say anything about bass response and just invite your friends to come listen and see what they think. I bet they'll be quite impressed.

My introduction into Klipsch was through my brother's purchase of LaScalas back in the 1970's. It's basically the same as the Belle. They'll rock just fine.

[astralography]

I do let my own ears do the judging, as I am more inclined to trust that then any kind of spec sheets. I was just wondering why

the Klipschorns would have more bass if they are basically both using 15 woofers with similar crossovers. My guess (probably wrong)

would be that the vibration of the wood from the cabinet is going to provide the bulk of the lower frequencies rather than a direct blast from

the speaker cone head on. Wood going to vibrate in a way that is conducive to it's inherent make up.. and being an organic product, will

offer a uniquely different response than a graphite, metal or plastic box would.

I listen to mostly jazz, classical and progressive rock, some vocal music, so I am not overly obsessed with low end..

what I like is a well rounded balanced sonic spectrum.

[mungkiman]

The paper decal is gone, but you can see the RP at the bottom left of the picture, but I don't see anything engraved after that. It would be interesting

to know how old these are... I am still deciding if I should fully refinish them up before they get hauled into the house. Looking forward to listening to them here soon. I have another tube amp on the way a vintage tube Fisher X100.. so that might be the match for it.

How do these sound in the mid range? Are there any holes or has anyone tried running an extra set in parallel other than a sub?

It looks like there is a "2" stamped just to the left of the crossover in this picture. Maybe something else, as well?

[garyrc]

I was just wondering why

the Klipschorns would have more bass if they are basically both using 15 woofers with similar crossovers. My guess (probably wrong)

would be that the vibration of the wood from the cabinet is going to provide the bulk of the lower frequencies rather than a direct blast from

the speaker cone head on. Wood going to vibrate in a way that is conducive to it's inherent make up.. and being an organic product, will

offer a uniquely different response than a graphite, metal or plastic box would.

I agree that you shouldn't wory about the bass, at least for now. Percussive bass is delivered by the Belles with punch and authority. As I said in an earlier post, they may even be better than Khorns within a narrow range of frequencies centering about 70 Hz. You may want to experiment putting them in or very near a corner for corner loading. My Belle (in my room, positioned as it is as a center channel) has a punchy peak at 60 Hz, which is enjoyable. The great advantage of the Belle, Khorns, and La Scala is that the woofer doesn't need to move nearly as far to create bass as would the very same 15 " woofer in a direct radiator system (instead of the horn loading that the Belle, La Scala, and Klipschorn). This cuts down on frequency modulation distortion (Doppler distortion) due the to higher bass notes not having to ride back and forth great distances on the cone while it pumps out lower bass notes. Back when Klipsch used to publish distortion figures, the Belle, La Scala, and Klipschorns had 1/3 of the distortion of this kind as another Klipsch speaker system that used the very same woofer in a direct radiator.. The other great advantage is that the Belles are so sensitive (103 dB @ 1w @ 1m) that using a 100 wt amplifier with them is like using a 2,000 watt amplifier with a typical speaker (90 dB @ 1w @1M).

The Klipschorns have a deeper bass reach because the bass horn is longer. Khorns also use the walls of the room, from the corner out, as an extension of the horn ... that's why they must be pushed all the way into the corner. Your point about wood vibration is interesting, but it is thenature of the horn loading, not wood vibration that does the trick. IMO, you really don't want wood vibration, which is why the Khorns are so solid.

The ONLY reason I added a sub was to get the sub-sub sound sometimes included in modern movies. For music listening, I end up turning off the sub sometimes, because the Belle & Khorns have much cleaner, more precise bass. The 40 Hz cut in for the sub was the result of many hours of listening, and using such a low cut in, instead of the standard 80 Hz for THX, allowed us to hear one additional octave of very clean bass, before the muddier sub came in.

[astralography]

Ok.. I spent the day trying out the new Belle's and it was more than interesting.

First let me say I have two systems, one downstairs in a small livingroom 20 x 14, the other in our master bedroom which has been home to my

main listening room and it is about 17 x 14

Both systems use the long wall for the speakers.

Not great rooms.. but all I have.. downstairs is Spanish Tile, upstair hardwood. Upstairs has a king bed, couch downstairs.. far from ideal.

Downstairs has a Fisher X100 tube amp, with a Dual TT.. amp is great, TT is marginal

Upstairs is HH Scott 340B vintage Tube, Music Hall 5.1 TT.. both excellent

After I sold my JBL's I scaled down to the Klipsch 3.2 of which I have two pair. I upgraded to the 5.2 because I had heard them and liked the detail on

the low end from the passive woofer.. I suppose you don't get the volume on the low end, but the passive woofer offers exceptional detail on low mid range, to low range. I did miss the crispness of the highs, particularly on a hi hat (I am also a drummer) that the little 3.2's offered.. so one day I just tagged the 3.2's to the back of the 5.2's and found a nice result blending those two speakers. Something was still a bit odd, and I then tried flipping the 3.2 upside down so that the tweeters on the 5.2 and the 3.2 were next to one another, and the woofers of course then had greater separation... It's a magic formula for a detail oriented listener. I added a powered sub to fake the low end a bit, and I can say for a smaller room that size, it really worked magic.. from Miles Davis, to Led Zeppelin, very honest musical set up.

Now.. the Belle..

First I hooked it up downstairs because I had no one around to help me get them upstairs.. so I hooked them to the Dual TT and Fisher. First impression was big volume. They sounded a bit bright, and slightly harsh.. but amazingly good at low volumes. I then tried combinining it with the 5.2 with little success.. they simply over powered it.

I then messed with toeing them in toward me, and that was not good.. then I moved them into the corners and this completely changed the sound as if they were completely different speakers. Much warmer sounding in the corners. I could quickly tell these are speakers where placement is everything.

I have read lots about this and how placement is so important, but this is the first time I have owned BIG speakers.. so I am assuming that BIG means placement becomes very critical.. much more so than smaller speakers.. I guess this makes sense.

The Dual TT was having vibration issues, from the low end, as it was too close to the speaker... and just for fun I put a couple sponges under it to soften the vibration or elimitate it.. and bingo.. HUGE difference. I understand now why audiophiles get so obsessed with no vibrations reaching the TT.

Today I took them upstairs with some help.. and quickly plugged them it for a listen with the Scott. The sounded great... without doing any kind of placement.. Then I put them up on stands and toed them in so I would get a direct line from the horns.. they lost all their bass, and sounded harsh and metallic. I them put them back on the floor, and they were full of bass, and had nice tone. Then I tried putting them into the corners, and this again improved the sound considerably to my ears. They sounded much better and better imaging having them just run along the walls, and not cornered or toed in at all. The wood floors for some reason really fill in the low end nicely..

That is just day one.. and I need to listen to other records.. I used Steely Dan Aja as a reference, because I am familiar with the recording, even though it has a bit too much compression for my tastes..

I think I slighly miss the real honest definition of the passive woofer in the 5.2... however, I do welcome the richness and sustain on the low end the Bella provides. The highs and mids seem to be a real strength of the Belle's with a more rounded deeper richer low end when placed on the wood floors. That seems to be a good fit. I have not tried Belle with a sub or any combining of the other speakers yet.. so I am sure one of my big problems is placement. I will have to listen to some jazz records and I can tell a lot by a drummer brush work. I might put on Miles "Kind of Blue" and some Brubeck to hear good acoustic recordings. Then I will probably play some of my favorite rock records like Jeff Beck's Blow by Blow which is a very well recorded rock album, Supertramp "Crime of the Century" and YES' Fragile to get a feel for that. Electric Jazz stuff like Mahavishu Orchestra "Vision of the Emerald Beyond, and 70's Maynard Fergenson stuff is very well recorded. I only play vinyl as I simply don't like the sound of CD's at all.. new or old. I don't care for new vinyl pressings, because they are clearly just pressing a CD version after re working it in a digital work station, then trying to fool the public into it being vinyl when it is nothing more that CD.. I would just buy the CD and avoid the future crackles and pops.

So again, I think placement is king with these, and I may simply not have a room that is going to be ideal for these speakers.. I'll listen again tomorrow with fresh ears, and see what I find spinning a few different things.

[garyrc]

• Paul Klipsch recommended putting all speakers in a corner. Some current folk disagree with that, but they may be the ones who rank order imaging over tonality. IMO, if you have speakers in a corner, and sit where you are looking down the throats of the horns, you tend to get the best of both worlds. Someone on the forum has radiation simulation photographs showing that corner placement provides the most even bass distribution. And corner placement increases bass, and, compared to free-standing in a room, away from walls, increases the power by 4 X (i.e., 6 dB), as PWK said, it's like exchanging a 25 watt amplifier for a 100 watt amplifier.
• Klipsch cautioned against putting any of his speakers on stands, legs, or the like, saying that it degraded the bass.
• I was a percussionist eons ago, and have found that horn loaded compresion drivers (like in the Belle) are very convincing on cymbals, inc high hats. Some classic recordings, including some Miles Davis, don't have really good cymbal sound. Is there a vinyl version of Chesky's "Fred Hersch Trio Plays Coleman Coltrane Davis Ellington [etc., etc.]. It (along with many others) has cymbals that will tingle your cortex. It was recorded in digital to begin with, though. Have you tried SACD?
• Every time you move from one good spesker to another you gain something and lose something, IMO. This is also true (sometimes) when changing placements. I would try allowing those corners to provide natural toe in, and vary the toe in a very few degrees at a time, and see what you think.
• It sounds like you like wood floors (so do I) and a somewhat live, bouncy, impactive sound (so do I). The Belle's "controlled directivity" is an advantage here, in that it will deliver a little less in the way of too early reflections that confuse the brain than will ultra wide dispersion speakers. Many people, though, find that a little absorbtion at the first reflection points only ( the points where if you hold a mirror flat on the floor, walls, or ceiling, you see the reflection of the speaker from your listening chair) is helpful. So a small thick area rug at the first reflection point on the floor may allow you to keep the sound of the wood floors, without the early reflection. Small absorbers (commercial or home-made) at the first reflection points on the walls and ceiling might also help.