Question about Coax Protection on Surge Protectors

[mbr311]

Okay, I have a question that I can't seem to get a straight answer on from technicians around here. First I have surge protectors in both rooms to protect my HT investment. They are both rated at 1080 joules. Is that enough? I have a HDTV, PS3, Wii, satellite box and my reciever plugged into the one in my main room and just a HDTV, DVD player and satellite box plugged into the one in my bedroom. The one in the family room seems to have worked flawless as everytime there is a storm, it will trip and shut everything down a few times which to me is showing me that it is working. But is that enough protection?

Second, my surge protectors all have coax. connectors. I used to run my satellite wiring through that into my TV with the thinking that it was the best way to protect that line in case it gets hit by lightning. However, everytime technicians come into my home they tell me NOT to run the coax. cable through the surge protector for two reasons: one it distorts the picture, and two you don't need to do it because the line is already grounded.

So what gives? Should I be running the coax. cables through the coax. connectors on the surge protectors, or should I just run them directly into the back of the TV and that is safe because they are grounded and as such I do not have to worry about electrical damage to my TV? As I said we get electrical storms here quite frequently and I know what I have is working because it shuts off and has saved my components I'm sure of it. Just need some direction on those two questions. Thanks!

[Arkytype]

Mark,

As you may know, surge protectors work by either shunting excessive voltage to ground or by absorbing the voltage spike. Some types sacrifice themselves in the process of protecting your gear and will need to be replaced. Other types may safely shunt the overvoltage to ground but in the process suffer some damage thus limiting future protection of your gear. If you have one of the second types and have experienced a recent lighning surge, I'd replace it. If it is damaged, it may not protect from future spikes.

I would purchase a device that has a guaranteed equipment replacement or repair warranty in the event your gear is damaged while connected. Tripp-Lite and Belkin both have $30,000.00 policies. I'd sure document your installation with photos so in the event you file a claim, you'll have some evidence. There is fine print in the warranty so be sure you are not using the surge protection strip with an extension cord and that the electrical grouonding system in your home is sound.

As far a a "joule rating" goes, in theory the more joules the more protection you'll have. But how many joules is enough? There's no clear cut answer to that. One reason there is no "X-joules will afford you X-amount of protection" law is that there are a dozen ways to generate spikes, surges, etc.--- each with different rise times, duration and fall time.

Then there's the direct lightning hit to your pole-mounted transformer. About the only protection for that is to anticipate the strike and turn off the main service entry breaker and hope the voltage won't jump the gap in the circuit breaker!

If you live near an industrial park, with businesses and manufacturers who use three-phase power, chances are you are going to suffer more spikes, surges and brownouts due to the motors, welders and other high in-rush current equipment used (motors, welders, presses, etc.)

As for coax surge protection, some will block the DC power from your satellite receiver to the LNB in the dish. If your Dish or DirecTV is working OK, your protector is obviously of a different type. There should be no reason for a coax surge protector to "distort the picture". Some coax protectors are designed with RF filters built-in and some VHS and or UHV OTA reception might be affected.

Anytime you bring an outside coax indoors, especially from a tower-mounted antenna, proper grounding is a must. You want the pre-strike build up of static electricity to be safely shunted to ground thru multiple ground rods. If a lightning strike does hit the tower, you'll soon learn how good your grounding system is!

All broadcast and communication towers (except AM towers which are insulated above ground) use a multiple ground rods buried around the perimeter and each is thermo welded to heavy bare copper wire connecting them all together. The tower legs are also thermo welded to one or more bare copper buses or wires which are in-turn connected to the perimeter ground.

The most spectacular up close and personal lightning strike I have witnessed was seeing multiple strikes dancing between the tops of two 1000-foot broadcast towers! I was sitting in my truck nearby afraid to move until the storm passed.The equipment in the transmitter buildings wasn't affected in the least---a testimony to a good grounding system.

Check with your local electric utility to see if they offer a replacement meter loop with built-in whole house surge protection. I wouldn't rely on a whole house protector as my sole spike insurance, but it might mitigate transients and spikes before they enter the breaker panel.

Lee

[dgoreck]

From my limited knowledge...if you house is hit directly with lightning, no surge protector will save your equipment. The surge proctector is more for dealling with spikes that get tranmitted from a distance. (lightning bolt is something like 1-10 BILLION joules, so a 1000 or 5000 joule isn't going to do much). I would be more worried about the type of clamping in it.

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_en.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=65&p_created=1000309964&p_sid=xXWMr-4k&p_accessibility=0&p_redirect=&p_lva=65&p_sp=cF9zcmNoPTEmcF9zb3J0X2J5PSZwX2dyaWRzb3J0PSZwX3Jvd19jbnQ9MTUxLDE1MSZwX3Byb2RzPTAmcF9jYXRzPSZwX3B2PSZwX2N2PSZwX3NlYXJjaF90eXBlPWFuc3dlcnMuc2VhcmNoX25sJnBfcGFnZT0xJnBfc2VhcmNoX3RleHQ9Sm91bGVzIHZzLiBMZXQtVGhyb3VnaCBWb2x0YWdl&p_li=&p_topview=1

Just one link I found quickly.

If you coax is grounded coming into the house, you maybe safe, but there really shouldn't be any harm with the unit on surge protector as long as it doesn't do anything else.

[mbr311]

Mark,

As you may know, surge protectors work by either shunting excessive voltage to ground or by absorbing the voltage spike. Some types sacrifice themselves in the process of protecting your gear and will need to be replaced. Other types may safely shunt the overvoltage to ground but in the process suffer some damage thus limiting future protection of your gear. If you have one of the second types and have experienced a recent lighning surge, I'd replace it. If it is damaged, it may not protect from future spikes.

I would purchase a device that has a guaranteed equipment replacement or repair warranty in the event your gear is damaged while connected. Tripp-Lite and Belkin both have $30,000.00 policies. I'd sure document your installation with photos so in the event you file a claim, you'll have some evidence. There is fine print in the warranty so be sure you are not using the surge protection strip with an extension cord and that the electrical grouonding system in your home is sound.

Lee

Lee - That's a lot of good information thanks so much. Just as an FYI I am using a Monster surge protector in my family room and it has shut down my entire system on numerous occassions to protect it, so I don't think its suffered any damange to be quite frank. Maybe I'm wrong but I would think if it was damaged it wouldn't shut down the electronics to protect it from surges. Is that correct thinking? If I had to replace the thing everytime it shut down my electronics during a storm, I would have had to replace the thing at least 30-40 times. We get a TON of electrical storms and like I said, this thing does a great job of shutting down everything before the surge goes through the system I'd assume since non of my equipment has suffered any damage thus far. Does that make sense? I'd also like to add that the transformer for my entire neighborhood is right behind my house and that has taken direct hits at least 10 times since I've lived here and every single time my surge protector has shut down my system and I have never suffered any damage. The transistor on the pole behind my house has also taken diret hits and the same applies, my surge protector shuts down my system, no damage suffered.

Edit: All the surge protectors I have bought have at least a $50,000 guarantee on them. But good call on taking pictures of everything for documentation purposes. I did the same thing for my homeowners policy and sent it to my adjuster so he had everything on file just in case. But that would make sense to do the same just in case god forbid I get a surge and it takes out all my equipment. Good call (thumbsup)!

[Arkytype]

Mark,

Looks like you and your gear has survived several worst case "spikes"!

Looking at the Monster web site, they have pretty comprehensive circuitry that disconnects the power from your gear when triggered by a surge. It it has cycyled thru numerous hits, it probably is robust enough not to fail internally.

Agreed---get a direct hit and all bets are off!

Lee

[mbr311]

Mark,

Looks like you and your gear has survived several worst case "spikes"!

Looking at the Monster web site, they have pretty comprehensive circuitry that disconnects the power from your gear when triggered by a surge. It it has cycyled thru numerous hits, it probably is robust enough not to fail internally.

Agreed---get a direct hit and all bets are off!

Lee

Lee - Thanks again for all the information. Yea I think it really is a robust piece of equipment. I am not one to fall for the monster gear is the best but I got this as part of a bundle when I bought my TV and have been really happy with it so far. I really do think it has saved me from a number of problems. And you're right, a direct him it won't even matter what you have guarding your equipment. Hopefully that never happens. Ironically enough, we just went through another heavy thunderstorm and sure enough my monster surge protector shut everything down. BTW it's the Monster Power Center HT800.

I am looking at a wall-mounted Belkin 3 pronged 1080joule protector for my bedroom. I read all the specs and it seems like a good piece of equipment and it's only $9.99+shipping on amazon.com. Think I'm going to go ahead and get that. My other option is another monster surge protector from bestbuy for $35.00 that also has 1080joule protection. Maybe since I've had such a good experience with monster I should just go ahead and pay the extra to get it. But from reading the Belkin specs there really didn't seem to be much of a difference. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Wall-Mount-Pivot-Plug-Protector-Protection/dp/B003GEUTBC

[JJkizak]

A direct lightning hit on our 100 year old oak tree about 30 feet from the house split the tree into 4 perfect quadrants, created several 1" diameter charcoal like tube worms leading to the metal septic tank pipe, melted the aluminum siding on the house, burned up all the security sensors on that side of the house, burned up the security system, burned up the 88 ft deep well pump motor, burned up the computer modem, burned up the upstairs phone, and burned up the Denon receiver.

JJK

[mbr311]

Damn JJKIZAK that's horrible!

So did anyone check that link for the Belkin surge protector, is that ok to handle my Panasonic Viera, satellite box and dvd player? It is only $9.99 but it seems to have adequate protection. Or should I just stick with the Monster HT800 that I already have experience with since its been doing a good job and I know from experience that it protects my equipment? Thanks!

[Mighty Favog]

This might sound wierd but whenever a big storm like that is coming I try to have my computer turned on when it does. I have an APC 650Pro UPS and it has the PowerChute software that came with the unit. With that it logs every "event" kinda like a nuclear reactor. If the strike isn't enough to take out the computer I can print out the "event" and turn it into APC for any claims I might have for my main 2-channel system which carries an APC H15.

[westom]

> First I have surge protectors in both rooms to protect my HT investment. They are both rated at 1080 joules. Is that enough?

So much well understood information to introduce. Most was understood even100 years ago. Let's start with that protector.

How does its one thousand joules absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't. Where is the manufacturer spec that claims protection from each type of surge? Does not exist. They can lie all they want in sales brochures. But they cannot lie in the numbers. It claims no protection because it is a profit center - not effective protection.

First learn what a protector does. A popular myth is that it sacrifices itself. By grossly undersizing it, it fails. The protector circuit disconnects as fast as possible. A surge too tiny to overwhelm protection already inside all appliances got the naive to recommend that grossly undersized protector. It failed on a surge too tiny to damage anything eles.

Protection is always - always - about where energy dissipates. Either a surge harmlessly dissipates outside the building. Or that energy is hunting for earth ground destructively via appliances. That is everything about surge protection. Nothing inside the building will stop the hunt. That was well understood even 100 years ago. Facilities that never have damage do not use plug-in protectors.

The NIST (US government research agency) says what every effective protector does:

> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these protective> devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply divert it to ground,> where it can do no harm.

All appliances contain serious protection. Destructive surges are rare - typically once every seven years. A number that can vary significantly even within the same town. A number related to another important factor - geology. Either your surge dissipates harmlessly in earth. Or that surge will find earth destructively via appliances.

So that energy does not overwhelm protection in every appliance (including the furnace and refrigerator), you must earth every incoming wire inside every cable. For example, cable TV is earthed where entering a building via a wire. That wire means no surge protector required. That wire connects short (ie 'less than 10 feet') to single point earth ground. Cable TV companies strongly recommend no protectors on their cable. Any protection that is effective is a short connection to the only thing that does surge protection -single point earth ground.

Telephone wires cannot be connected directly. So every subscriber interface has a 'whole house' protector installed for free - typically in the NID. But again, a protector does not do protection. That protector is only as effective as the one item that you are totally responsible for - single point earth ground.

Lightning striking AC electric wires down the street are a direct lightning strike to every household appliance. Is everyone damaged? Of course not. The surge is hunting. Which appliance makes a better connection to earth? Well, the cable appliance and telephone appliance is connected to earth where wires enter the building. Once you have permitted a surge inside the building, then it goes hunting, destructively, inside your building. Better paths to earth are via modems and TVs. Damage directly traceable because you let energy inside.

Informed consumers earth one 'whole house' protector from a list of more responsible companies. Not on that list are Belkin, Tripplite, and the company with a long history of selling the same scams for even higher profits - Monster. Responsible companies include General Electric, Siemens, Intermatic, Leviton, ABB, Square D, etc. A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells in Lowes and Home Depot for less than $50. Either energy is earthed before entering the building. Or nothing (but protection already inside every appliance) protects appliances

. Well, that is the executive summary. For example, not defined is single point earth ground - the most critical component in every protection system. How do you know that plug-in protector is ineffective? 1) It has no dedicated wire for that short connection to single point earth ground. 2) It avoids all discussion about earthing.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. No earth ground means no effective protection. What makes one 'whole house' protector from responsible companies so effective? A protector is only as effective as its earth ground.

[mbr311]

I am looking at a wall-mounted Belkin 3 pronged 1080joule protector for my bedroom. I read all the specs and it seems like a good piece of equipment and it's only $9.99+shipping on amazon.com. Think I'm going to go ahead and get that. My other option is another monster surge protector from bestbuy for $35.00 that also has 1080joule protection. Maybe since I've had such a good experience with monster I should just go ahead and pay the extra to get it. But from reading the Belkin specs there really didn't seem to be much of a difference. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Belkin-Wall-Mount-Pivot-Plug-Protector-Protection/dp/B003GEUTBC

Well I found a freakin' amazing deal on this surge protector, got it for $6.99 with free shipping from Dell they apparently have deals every day on different products and I just stumbled across it. Has 1080 joule protection rating and a warranty that easily covers my gear, so time to go and take pictures and document just in case, but I feel a lot better having this as opposed to a generic one from Target that I was using before in the bedroom. Its also really nice becasue it plugs right into the wall so it doesn't take up a lot of space. I guess I'll find out when the next storm comes around if this thing works as well as my Monster HT800 and trips it before the surge hits anything important. My Monster HT800 has worked perfectly so far, doing exactly what its supposed to do many, many times. Just glad I stumbled across this find...

[westom]

got it for $6.99 with free shipping from Dell they apparently have deals every day on different products and I just stumbled across it. Has 1080 joule protection rating

How does its trivial thousand joules (typically 350 and never more than 700 joules) absorb surges that are hundreds of thousands of joules? It doesn't.

Where is the manufacturer spec that claims protection from each type of surge? Good luck. Even scammers will not lie in numeric specs. Defined was what effective protectors did even 100 years ago. Did you ignore it because it included numbers? No numbers - no protection.

Protection is always about where energy dissipates. Always. How does a 2 cm part inside the $7 protector stop what three miles of sky could not? It doesn't. How does a protector that does not even claim protection in specs magically make surges disappear? It doesn’t.

Why ignore what the NIST said? Were three sentences too complex? The NIST further defines your deal:

> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will work by

> diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in the world can be

> useless if grounding is not done properly.

The NIST defines your protector: "useless". Where does that protector have an always required, short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to earth ground? It doesn’t. No earth ground means no effective protection. But it is called a “surge protector”. Therefore we can ignore reality and numbers?

That protector is the same circuit that sells for $7 in the grocery store. The same circuit in the generic Target protector. Did you view the spec numbers?

Previous posts repeatedly asked this same question. Where does energy dissipate? No answer quickly identifies why scams are so easily promoted. A plug-in protector claim that its 700 joules will make hundreds of thousands of joules just magically disappear? It must. Because it sure does not list any protection in its numeric specifications.

You could have bought the same protector in the grocery store for $7. Or bought an actual surge protector - a 'whole house' protector - for about $1 per appliance. Why is that new protector a deal? You could have bought same in most any grocery store for the same price.

[mbr311]

Wow dude, there are ways to be helpful, and there are ways to sound totally and utterly condescending. I'm glad you took the second route really.

I'm not going to argue with you because you obviously have a VAST amount of electrical knowledge, but let me ask you something? IF my Monster HT800 has worked flawlessly for 10 years in this house - taking strikes directly to the transformer behind my house, taking direct strikes to the transformer on the poles..and it has shut down my system EVERY SINGLE TIME and caused ZERO HARM then obviously the grounding that is currently in place in my home must be pretty damned good right, or i'm just one lucky son of a ***** I guess. I read everyone's post, the fact of the matter is, even if this thing isn't as good as you would like it to be, it has a $25,000 warranty of everythign hooked up to it which is more than enough to cover the HT pieces I have hooked up to it. The way you make it sound (fatalistic) I should be worried about every single electrical piece of equipment in my home. Once again, if I have taken direct hits to the transformer, direct hits to the transformers on the telephone pole and never had a single problem then my setup must be good right? Or do I need to go run out armagedon style and start spending money to make sure everythign is protected in the manner in which you speak? Once again, it seems from experience that things must be working the way they should be if I've never had anything electrical get destroyed in 10 years during thousands of electrical storms, hundreds of hits...and everyone said a direct hit, it doesn't even matter what you have in place. So what should I do? Really, I appreciate the advice I really do but I do not appreciate the manner in which you are speaking to me. This is a community to learn..we all are not blessed with your electrical knowledge. How about talking to me instead of making me feel small, or is that what you want to come off as? Sorry I'm a bit peeved here, I don't hear people ridiculing others for these types of issues, I usually see people jump right in and HELP. IF you're just going to ridicule me again, please, don't bother. If you want to help, i'm open ears. How about giving me a link to something that you feel would be useful for me to get. Obviously I'm not an expert here, and constantly referring to NIST and all these numbers blah blah blah it doesn't resonate with me because I have no idea what you're talking about. Give me a LINK...tell me what I should get. If its $1 per household appliance then I'm sure I can spring for it. But seriously, was it necessary to say "were three sentences too complex?" Is it really necessary to take a shot at me like that? Like I said if you want to help I'm open ears but if you just want to belittle me, just forget it.

[westom]

IF my Monster HT800 has worked flawlessly for 10 years in this house - taking strikes directly to the transformer behind my house, taking direct strikes to the transformer on the poles..and it has shut down my system EVERY SINGLE TIME and caused ZERO HARM then obviously the grounding that is currently in place in my home must be pretty damned good right, or i'm just one lucky son of a *** I guess.

What protected the dishwasher, washing machine, kitchen and bathroom GFCIs, clock radios, digital clocks, door bell, dimmer switches, every TV and radio, .... What protected the most critical appliance if a surge does happen - smoke detectors? How did all these things survive without a Monster protector? Because all appliances contain serious surge protection. And because you did not yet suffer a destructive surge. The Monster did nothing.

Wires connect directly to those appliances without grounding, if you have no 'whole house' protector. How many AC wires enter the house? How many are earthed? At least two others connect surges directly (unearthed) to all appliances if you have no 'whole house' protector.

A surge occurs maybe once every seven years. Either you had no surges - those strikes were trivial. Or, did you know about the primary surge protection system? Why does that protection work? Unlike the Monster and Target protectors, utilities also install what is always necessary for any and effective protection:

http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

If having frequent lightning strikes, then an inevitable destructive surge is coming. And maybe not just from lighning. For example, a friend knows someone who knows this stuff. 33,000 volts fell upon local distribution. Electric meters exploded 20 and 30 feet from the pan. Many who wasted money on plug-in protectors had electronics damage. Fortunately, no plug-in protectors created fire when doing no protection. My friend only had a 'whole house' protector - properly earthed. Even his protector was undamaged. His only damage was a meter also blown from its pan.

Which autos have the best warranty? GM hypes a 100,000 mile five year warranty. Using your logic, that proves GM products are superior to Honda and Toyota. Reality repeatedly demonstrated in the free market. Products with the best warranty tend to be worse products.

Did you read the warranty find print? Full of exemptions so it need not be honored. For example, one APC warranty said a protector from any other manufacturer voided their warranty. Of course. It does not claim protection. Why would they pay off on a warranty?

djohn on 8 Apr 2010 entitled "Are surge protectors a waste of money?" :
> Phoned up manufacture of UPS [belkin] and they were not happy as soon as
> I said I was using the surge protectors, should have used UPS on its own!
> Didn't bother to follow that up any further at that point a I could see it
> would most likely end up in small claims court. ...
> Phoned Manufactures of surge protectors , ...
> Conditions laid down over phone came no where near to what I had read on
> package when buying and I had not kept the packaging so that nullified the
> claim even though I had the receipts. ...

UPS and surge protector - and he still had damage. Both manufacturers also would not honor the warranty - predictable. They do not even claim to provide protection. The NIST says why:
> The best surge protection in the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.

Provided was a list of effective protectors from many responsible companies including Leviton and General Electric. Any electrical supply house provides a 'whole house' protector that is 50,000 amps or better. Or visit any Lowes or Home Depot. A Cutler-Hammer 'whole house' protector sells for less than $50.

[Guest " "]

" They are both rated at 1080 joules. Is that enough? "

Aside from the max spike absorbing consideration, the devices inside your surge protector have a memory. They can take a large hit up to their max rating, or many smaller hits consecutively . Every small hit uses up a part of the MOV. when the entire MOV is used up, the MOV typically shorts out.

"Should I be running the coax. "

I can't visually tell if there's any distortion of line loss. I can't imagine there being any until the internal MOV reaches it's max memory state and shorts out.

Tools can cause surges....so having a whole house protector is a good idea.

Appliances usally do not cause surges, they cause negative power factor, which is basically a wave that flows against the incoming power thereby reducing the amount of power you can actually uses.

Before I went surge protection happy, I had sensitive electronic's blow on a regular basis.

[Malcolm]

Joule ratings are useless for comparing devices from different companies, and in some cases, devices from the same company. There is no standard for them. Surge current is a better measure.

A reasonably sized whole-house surge protective device, say 50 kA, will typically last 20 years or more.

Appliances with motors, and other things in the house, most definitely do cause surges. However, despite the hype you hear from manufacturers, most damaging surges originate outside the house. Most gear in your house is inherently protected from the kinds of surges most commonly generated inside.