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How do the KP600's compare to the MWM's?


Coytee
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I once heard a pair of KP 600's for 10 minutes. I've never heard a pair of stereo MWM's

If you had a pair of each outside in the field..... which one is the Mac Daddy for clarity, punch and volume?

Richard,

Joey B. or Kevin would be the best to answer this question, but I will describe my experience and beliefs on this. I have heard both several times at about 30 feet or less at the same time back and forth for direct comparrison in Kevins shop. Kevin also hauled the 4-way Motengators over to a good friend of his for a family get together that Kevin invited me to. Kevins friend has 20 acres, and about 19 of it is all yard. Kevin set up the Motengators at least a couple hundred yards from the pavilion next to the pond where we had the cook out, and we listened like that all day. My only true outdoor experience with the KP-600s was Bob Mcterie (spelling?) of Ram Sound, did a jazz festival in downtown Layfayette (Kevins home town), and Kevin and I went and listened. That would not be a truely fair comparrison, as I only truely listened from the sound board at the farthest, or a little behind it at 150 feet maybe, and Bob was running 4 stacks of KP-600s and some KP-450s as well as a bunch of pro herisies for stage monitors. Kevin may very well of hauled his KP-600s over to that same field by now. I did not get to go to pilgramidge to hear Steves settup play at that kind of distance, although I helped on the orriginal reassembly of those stacks and have heard them several times.

My oppinion is that up close in side by side comparrison it is a no contest. The KP-600s have a better Bass punch and dig lower with those four 18" KP-47s. The KP-600s also win on quality of sound for me. For me, KP-600 has more of a Jubilee sound as I can compare it to Kevins Jubilees with one KP-684. Although I think Kevins Jube settup the ultimate for listening pleasure. The Motengators have more of a Klipschorn sound, although heard easily at close ranges, they loose some of this at distance. Kevin and I both feel that JPs MCM-4-T-Grands with a pair of KP-684s or a pair of KP-682s for back up, would have to be the ultimate Big Klipsch settup. That dual 15 Roy helped design is strong, no doubt about it, and a heck of alot nicer to tote then MWMs, but the MWM wins out for ultimate 15s, but the MWMs need the reinforcement of 4 and preferably 8 eighteen inch drivers as max spl is down 3 dB on the bottom KP-600 cabinet from the other two. All the Jube guys know the capabillity of the 402 lense over the older horn shapes, so I would piece together a pair of MCM-4-T-grands over time, and augment them with 4 KP-682s for what you want to do, that would be the best!! [Y][;)]

Roger

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Agree with Roger that MCM's supplemented with KP682 or KPT684 would be the mac daddy. Not really fair to compare the 9-driver per side KP600 to the MCM's twin 15's, 10" and 4xK55. Add two more 18's and it's a fairer fight. I haven't spent a lot of time with full KP600 stacks, but my guess is that the fully horn loaded MCM is still a glorious beast.

That's what I do probably 75% of my music listening to- full MCM stack in workshop, original passive networks, 200 watts per side.

But we'll see when I get these 600's finished. Nothing like collecting them ALL. I've got pairs KP301, KP250, KP172 loaded for a large picnic gig today.

Michael

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I'll admit I'm not concerned about what's fair. In fact, to that end, let me change the equation a little bit.

What about a pair of stacked MWM singles, K402 on top of that with the 1132/1133 midrange (or tweeter?) driver, and the K510 on top of that with the K69

I know Mark has that mid-bass section and for above, I'm leaving that logic out.

The perspective would be setting up something in the field as per some of those pictures you saw, wanting the scale of it to be big and just as important (to me anyway) is, when leaning into the volume, I want the visceral impact to reach out & touch you even if you may be standing 50/100' away. For the sake of current conversation, let's leave subs out of it.

I presume that means power and it's the application of the power that has me wondering about blowing my K69 mounted on my 402 when used as a tweeter from 500hz up and that has me thinking about mixing the parts around to protect agasint that. This is really the entire item that is making me think about this. I'm starting at the end (trying to protect the K69 from volume abuse) and working backward to what would I need to begin with while maintaining quality sound.

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K402 isn't exactly a 'long throw' outdoor horn is it?

If you're considering running large amounts of power through this system, the approach you're considering is appropriate, especially since that's closer to one of the pre-packaged Klipsch theater systems.

I still think it's a stretch going from horn loaded 15's to that mid/high horn. For that reason the MSSM and XII were born. For live music there is a lot of info in that 100-300 hz band, and modern movies contain a lot of music. Makes sense don't it?

Even with the MWM's don't underestimate the amount of ULF you'll need for modern soundtracks. Sheer volume is one thing, but the MWM's are going to give up around 35-40 Hz so another octave is called for for proper reproduction.

Now we need to get you some KP250's on sticks for surrounds- and what about that critical center channel?

Or just set it up and give it a whirl- what's it sound like? what's missing?

M

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Now we need to get you some KP250's on sticks for surrounds- and what about that critical center channel?

Never thought I'd see the day when I told Mr. Colter to "think big" lol [;)]

Actually... just between you & me & the lurkers, I got to thinking.... how cool would it be to have a 5 point surround system in the field, made up of MWM's?

Perhaps 2 full double bass bin stacks in front (have no idea yet how to tackle center unless it can be off center of screen and put the mains out 30'. So that's three double stacks. Then for the rears, maybe "get by" with a single MWM with perhaps 402 on top?? After all, how much really comes from the rear after the crickets and frogs are done? Won't the intermittent gunshot be well taken care of with a single MWM and 402?

As for just setting it up and giving a whirl...that's what I did given the constraints of parts I have at my disposal. Me loving the earth to shake, I'd say "what's missing" is the earth shaking......however, it's a lot easier to get the dishes to shake & rattle than the oak trees [:^)]

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Richard,

Michael is correct, without the subs, the MWM is going to be real Bass shy on the bottom end compared to the KP-600 stacks, and even then, the dual 18" woofers per side on the KP-600s or a pair of KP-682s is not going to really dig low enough for visceral bass on gun blasts or explosions of a movie, but at least you will have alot more information to "HEAR" closer to that range, and single MWMs are going to have 3 dB less bass then doubles. Less bass I would assume then the double 15 horn roy designed. You have a great start padowan, but the trail has far yet for you to go... [;)]

Roger

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Now we need to get you some KP250's on sticks for surrounds- and what about that critical center channel?

Won't the intermittent gunshot be well taken care of with a single MWM and 402? Huh?

......No.....[:^)]

Richard, I don't know if you have ever been over to Indy Rogers house for a movie or not. I never have, but I know enough about La Scalas to know that if you went over and listened to "Open Range" with his subs turned off, you would be pretty close to the kind of system you are talking about. Now have him turn the subs on and listen to the gun shots. I am sure he would never want to give up his subs for gunshots or explosions when watching movies. In my opinion on a home theatre situation, the center channel, and the sub, are the two most important speakers...

Roger

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Coytee,

We are obviously, traveling similar paths here.[:D]

Even without that subsonic level of bass we are chasing after, it would still be pretty incredible, just have some kind of adjustable limiter along with LF filter, so you can dig as deep as possible, without damaging drivers(ask me how I know!).

Clint's .44 Mag, still feels like it is punching a hole in you and Das Boot in that U movie sounds like it's coming apart around you from the depth charges.

If the trailer theatre seating makes it's return, I'd sooner look into those "Rump Shaker" devices.

The other choices, would get expensive and big quickly, but the now defunct Adire Audio Parthenon Rotary Sub,seemed up for the job.

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/1201/adire-audio-parthenon-revisiting-the-ultimate-subwoofer

But it is starting to seem that on a large scale, having 30Hz and below at a matched level, is a difficult task.

As much as I love and am chasing after more Bass, clear and well positioned highs and mids are more crucial to a enjoyable suround sound experience, with clear dialogue and pin point positioning of sfx/enviroment.

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Ok, I've been thinking...and here is where I am. Looking for some outline as to what parts would be appropriate.

Parts in hand for simple conversation will be only the MWM singles. Let's forget I have the 402's for a moment.

Where I think I'd want to be is: MWM stacked as double bin in a 3-way format with a subwoofer.

Here's my thought process. Take the singles, stack them...get a couple more & stack them. Buy another Dx38 which is 2-in 4 out. This allows me to have a single Dx38 per stack. Now I have 4-channels. I could have the MWM's configured as a 3-way stack being controlled with 3 of the 4 Dx38 channels and the 4th channel could be the output to a subwoofer.

So, under that scenario, how would you configure?

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simplest might be to take the double MWM-S and stack LSI's or LS on them. You could tri-amp it and have one channel left over for subs. You'd have plenty of lf punch, which is needed outdoors since you don't have room reinforcement.

My back aches just thinking about what you're doing. If it's a bit simpler than 5 MWM stacks you might be more likely to set it up from time to time and have storage for it without constructing more acreage under roof.

How about this- three matching MWM stacks (of whatever configuration you decide) and KP3002 or KP362 for surrounds? If you get KP301 they are 15" full range three way and still pole mountable. I really like the sensation of getting some height out of the surrounds and smaller cabinets is the easiest way to be able to do this.

M

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You're probably right on the surrounds... I get excited when I think of something fun and tend to go over-board. I should listen to the wise one.

As for configuring the main stacks, you are suggesting perhaps, 2 single bins stacked with an industrial LaScala on top?

(this next is a question, not an argument)

Wouldn't the K402/1132 with the mid bass unit (no idea what it's called) give a bigger presentation?

I don't want to really say this but.... given what I've heard with the 402 over the top section of my old Khorns and current LaScalas.... I'd rather look in the direction of not using the smaller horns.

Might work in a pinch but a long term view would be to do it big. (I'm still stuck in the excited mode and after following your above wisdom, have thought, "well, maybe I could put MWM singles in the rear with LaScalas on top of them) lol...

I need to be beaten down a couple more notches to something that would be functional and still sound great.

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I'm trying to engineer this so you don't have to disassemble your home stacks. Let's not drag the 402's into this unless we have to.

The mid-bass from the theater line up is called XII (it has a 12" woofer used as a compression driver into the horn). I have no idea what it sells for separately but probably not inexpensive.

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I like the idea of keeping my 402's safe from harm... it's dawned on me that I would simply consider buying another pair (or quantity) of them so that I could feel ok about nicking them up and still keep my 'pretty' ones safe in my living room. Every time I've moved one of them outdoors, I just know that I'm going to drop it or rake it agasint something. Then, not only will I have ugly speakers in the living room, they'll be nicked up ugly speakers [:D]

Is the XII CALLED the "12" or is it called XII? I asked Roy about subs and he suggested 4 884's yikes. I didn't ask him... I wonder if you would have them as a single "bank" side by side by side or would you spread them around a little bit, say 2 on a side?

Fritz, any word yet on those drivers? They've still not shown up on my side. I probably need to call them tomorrow.

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oops got that one wrong KPT484 vs884. The 884 does dig deeper but at a pretty good cost in terms of acreage (space and weight) and efficiency. I'd just get 484, 682 or 684 subs but that's just me.

XII is the model number on the speaker. Look up the Grand MCM-4 way system it's in that brochure. Looks somewhat like a 402 horn in a cabinet with 12" behind it. There might be other mid-bass modules that you could use unless you want to stay strictly Klipsch.

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unless you want to stay strictly Klipsch

Probably.

1. I'd just as rather they got any business I might possibly create

2. I've had their cool-aid and it's ok by me

3. I know it's an engineered solution and I can bug Roy for the Dx38 paramaters

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THe subs could be used 2 per side or 4 ganged in the center (or other ways). the 484 is the single woofer version of the dual 18 684 (682 in battle dress).

XII is the model number on the speaker. Look up the Grand MCM-4 way system it's in that brochure. Looks somewhat like a 402 horn in a cabinet with 12" behind it. There might be other mid-bass modules that you could use unless you want to stay strictly Klipsch.

Michael,

Richard said that Roy suggested four 884 Cinima Subs, not the 484, or 682, or 684. The 884 is a Large Cabinet single 18" woofer design that digs deeper, but requires alot more wattage as it is less efficient then the other 3 designs.

Roger

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I like the idea of keeping my 402's safe from harm... it's dawned on me that I would simply consider buying another pair (or quantity) of them so that I could feel ok about nicking them up and still keep my 'pretty' ones safe in my living room. Every time I've moved one of them outdoors, I just know that I'm going to drop it or rake it agasint something. Then, not only will I have ugly speakers in the living room, they'll be nicked up ugly speakers Big Smile

Is the XII CALLED the "12" or is it called XII? I asked Roy about subs and he suggested 4 884's yikes. I didn't ask him... I wonder if you would have them as a single "bank" side by side by side or would you spread them around a little bit, say 2 on a side?

Fritz, any word yet on those drivers? They've still not shown up on my side. I probably need to call them tomorrow.

Richard,

Allilaytor had a single KPT-884 that he contacted me trying to sell, so shoot him an email if you want to pick one up.

Roger

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