Reference series tweeter blown

[kelA]

MissMiller, yes I currently have the RF3. My equipment list is detailed below. It would appear you are under-powering your speakers and driving them into clipping if trying to listen at insane volumes with 50?watts. Klipsch does recommend driving them with at least 150 watts. My current Denon is rated at 130 watts on paper. I would suspect it is close to that with actual bench tests. A person needs to be careful when comparing specs (watts per channel) between manufacturers. There are many ways a manufacturer determines power output of a receiver/amp. Seldom are they equal comparisons. The 3808 is now a discontinued model since it was introduced in 2008. I believe the comparable model in the new Denon lineup is the 4310.

What kind of budget are you working with; how many channels (speakers); are you wanting to watch Blu-Ray with Hi-Def audio? This will help us to better recommend a replacement to the Sony should you choose to replace it.

[artto]

Welcome to the Forum

From the "sound" (pun intended) of things, I think you really need to consider an upgrade from RF3 to a few of these:

http://www.klipsch.com/na-en/products/kpt-mcm-4-t-grand-overview/

And a few of these to go with:

http://www.audioresearch.com/Ref610T.html

That should play plenty loud and possibly even blow the car away (literally) that was used in the sound off.

[li]

[ricktate]

Hi MissMiller,I dont think power is the question alot of us run the old Harman Kardon 430 reciever which is only 24 watts. The guys may be right about the compressed music i dont have anything like that so i dont know.Did it happen while you listened to your I-pod? I would try and get ahold of Trey at Klipsch maybe he could help you get it figured out.Glad your here not to many females here and you sound like true audio nut just like the rest of us ...well maybe not that nutty..lol...Rick

[djk]

The compressed tunes will eat up diaphrams no matter what you power them with.

Interesting, I'd never heard that before. What's the theory behind that?

Two things damage speakers:

Mechanical damage (from too much excursion).

Too much average power.

(notice that clipping is not one of those two things?)

Compression raises average power, and thus burns out drivers.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Clipping blows out drivers, not because of the clipping, but because of the increased average power in the program material during the time when the amplifier is not clipped.

[CECAA850]

Thanks djk, I'm trying to learn here. If what you say is correct (I don't know enough about the subject to argue otherwise) then I don't understand something. Compressed music raises the average power extracted from the receiver and the average power burns out the drivers (voice coils I'm assuming). You have a receiver rated at 50 wpc and your speakers are rated to handle 100wpc (and higher peak). How does the receiver produce enough power to burn out the drivers?

What I've read in the past is that a clipped signal actually changes voltage type (from AC to DC or vice versa) and that voltage change is what burns the voice coils out. I can't reference the article off the top of my head, but I'm going to go back and do some searching and see if I can find it. If I can, I'll post a link, if I can't, It's probably just another oldtimers moment for me.

[CECAA850]

Here's one theory. Nothing about voltage type changing however, I guess I "misremembered" that part. (Quotation courtesy of Roger Clemmons).

Effects of clipping

In power amplifiers, the signal from an amplifier operating in clipping has two characteristics that could damage a connected loudspeaker:

• 

  

  Difference between clipped and maximum unclipped waveforms
  Because the clipped waveform has more area underneath it than the smaller maximum unclipped waveform, the amplifier produces more output power. (See the waveform to the right for an example.) This extra power can cause damage to loudspeaker components, including the woofer, tweeter, or crossover, via overheating.
• In the frequency domain, clipping produces harmonics at higher frequencies than the unclipped signal. This additional high frequency energy has the potential to damage a loudspeaker's tweeter via overheating.

Other effects of clipping include:

• Music which is clipped experiences amplitude compression, whereby all notes begin to sound equally loud because loud notes are being clipped to the same output level as softer notes

[CECAA850]

Maybe you were referring to a compressed waveform (signal) and not compressed music? Just a guess.

[MissMiller]

LOL.. Thanks Ricktale.. Yes it did happen while I was listening to my Phone Or mp3s off my HTC Evo Android. I have a app called Pandora and I listen to it at work and it is nice to just hook it up at home while I am cooking dinner or working out ect.. I would have NEVER in a million years thought that the power ( which isnt alot ) would burn up the drivers.. My phones output just doesnt get loud..When I think of Burning up drivers I think of super loud music.. ( I know wrong again) And I have VERY limited Knowledge of audio in general But I re read all of your guys comments on compression .. It seems to be the problem.. There for a couple weeks I was coming home and listening to the mp3s on my phone.. ( alot cheaper than buying individual cds :-) And that is when i noticed the problem.. Finally it happened to my center channell and I have NO highs left.. :-( I am going to call Klipsch today and order the new horns ?? drivers?? Im kinda dont even want to go home without music.. :-( .. Lol. its just not the same..

Oh and I have a question .. LOL.. I really hope this doesnt sound.. dumb.. :-) So the compression from my phone is probably the reason for the speakers blowing.. If i download all the mp3s from my phone onto a CD will it still be bad on the speakers??? Is it the recording or the phone output itself ?? I hope that makes sense.. lol

[MissMiller]

Sorry my post was duplicated..

[MissMiller]

MissMiller, yes I currently have the RF3. My equipment list is detailed below. It would appear you are under-powering your speakers and driving them into clipping if trying to listen at insane volumes with 50?watts. Klipsch does recommend driving them with at least 150 watts. My current Denon is rated at 130 watts on paper. I would suspect it is close to that with actual bench tests. A person needs to be careful when comparing specs (watts per channel) between manufacturers. There are many ways a manufacturer determines power output of a receiver/amp. Seldom are they equal comparisons. The 3808 is now a discontinued model since it was introduced in 2008. I believe the comparable model in the new Denon lineup is the 4310.

What kind of budget are you working with; how many channels (speakers); are you wanting to watch Blu-Ray with Hi-Def audio? This will help us to better recommend a replacement to the Sony should you choose to replace it.

I would like to keep it under $800.. If possible but could save up for something that I just fell in love with. Here in my hometown we are soo limited.. We have One best buy and a radio Shack. Best Buy was the first time I heard the Klipsch Speakers.. I fell in love instantly. I think they were using a Yamaha reciever.. I would probably end up buying online.. Which is what I did with all my speakers.. I went from a 7. 1 to a 5.1.. It is funny because All my friends come over and I love showing off my surround on movies.. ( my favorite one is the Transformers scenes which get pretty loud) :-) But I am not a big movie buff.I watch shows like Mad men the Sopranos on a very low volume.The main reason I wanted a great surround was for music and Boxing.. I throw get togethers often for all the major fights.. I actually prefer my movies to be lower in volume.. I prefer my music loud.. I dont own a Blu Ray im still on Dvds. :-) And this might be the worst question ever but what is the difference in Hi def sound ?? :-) lol.

[Mr. RF62]

Based on the resposes in this thread, I am now waiting the answers to these questions as it feels like I now am learning something new...I'm with you Carl.

[djk]

"You have a receiver rated at 50 wpc and your speakers are rated to
handle 100wpc (and higher peak). How does the receiver produce enough
power to burn out the drivers?"

The 100W rating is assuming several things:

Program material with high dynamic range.

Bandwidth limited to not over-excurd the woofer.

Time limited to a shorter period than the time it takes for the drivers to reach thermal equalibrium.

"What I've read in the past is that a
clipped signal actually changes voltage type (from AC to DC or vice
versa) and that voltage change is what burns the voice coils out. I
can't reference the article off the top of my head, but I'm going to go
back and do some searching and see if I can find it. If I can, I'll
post a link, if I can't, It's probably just another oldtimers moment for
me."

Mumbo-jumbo from someone that doesn't understand the subject.

Back in the day when Klipsch published real data on the LaScala, it was rated at:

K77M = 5W long term average power (wrongly called RMS watts).

K55V = 30W long term average power (wrongly called RMS watts).

K33E = 80W long term average power (wrongly called RMS watts).

K33E = 40W DC

The Klipschorn used the same drivers, and I have driven them to clipping on music for fairly long periods with a Carver PM1.5 (capable of putting out in excess of 1KW on program material into the minimum impedance of a Klipschorn).

[djk]

"I think know I am running 50 watts per speaker. but I should be running
150??"

Doesn't really matter, you will still smoke the tweeters.

The speakers really can't play loud enough for you.

Until you dig up money for different gear: repair the tweeter and add a 211-2 automotive dome lamp in series with one lead of the tweeter. The lamp will pass the signal intact until you overdrive things. At this point the lamp will heat up and protect the tweeter from blowing.

If you play ypur speakers with a blown tweeter very loud, or very long, the network will be damaged too.

When funds are available, consider a used pair of Heresy or RB-75, and use with a subwoofer. The HF driver in an RB-75 will handle about 30W, and with the addition of an 1156 automotive lamp will not blow, even at ear-bleed levels. Use the RCA inputs on the sub, and the RCA outputs that go back to the main amplifier for the highs.

[Trey Cannon]

YES, 150Wpc is just right.

The Sony you have is lacking in the power supply dept.

My guess is your are clipping the receiver and sending it low rez MP3 signal. both are hard on tweeters.

Check your mail, I sent you one.

WELCOME TO THE FORUM!

[djk]

"both are hard on tweeters."

For the reasons I explained.