2 inch driver/horn upgrade question

[msutton]

i have been following several of the different post pertaining to upgrading khorns to a 2 inch driver/horn and have been abit overwhelmed by all the information on different drivers and horns. im wanting to keep things simple and keep my khorns 3 way and continue to use a passive crossover. i have been looking for a drop in replacement to the k401/k55 that could work with a passive crossover such as the alk universal or alk jr. what is the opinon on going with the Selenium D408Ti 2" driver paired with one of the the selenium 2" fiberglass horns that bob crites sells. the specs say that the driver and horns are good from 400hz up so will this combo work with the passives that cross at 400hz ok? would this combo best the performance of simply upgrading to the trachorn 400s? thanks for any input

[Al Klappenberger]

msutton,

There is simply no good reason to go to a 2-inch throat horn unless you are running levels approaching those needed for a movie theater. The pressure in the throat of a horn is a function of the volume level and the diameter. The higher the level and the smaller the diameter the more the pressure. The higher the pressure the more distortion is generated. At volume levels a normal person can even stand in a home environment is well below the level where distortion becomes noticeable in a 1-inch horn. At normal listening levels, a 2-inch horn boils down to spending $1200 for a $200 improvement! With a Khorn there is another factor however. Evan at normal listening levels there is no quality 1-inch driver available that can reproduce 400 Hz without distortion, which is the required crossover frequency for a Khorn. Only the stock K55 can handle it. It takes a 2-inch driver to actually improve on a K55, which is really not a bad driver at all. All this boils down to if you want to improve on the K55. If so, you MUST go 2-inch! By far, the best bang for the buck is moving from the stock K400 to a better 1-inch horn and keep the k55. The difference will knock your socks off!

If you have a Belle or LaScala, you can cross over at 500 or 600 Hz and replace the K55 with a choice of quite a few quality 1-inch drivers. This means there is no good reason at all to go 2-inch.

Al K.

[greg928gts]

i have been following several of the different post pertaining to upgrading khorns to a 2 inch driver/horn and have been abit overwhelmed by all the information on different drivers and horns. im wanting to keep things simple and keep my khorns 3 way and continue to use a passive crossover. i have been looking for a drop in replacement to the k401/k55 that could work with a passive crossover such as the alk universal or alk jr. what is the opinon on going with the Selenium D408Ti 2" driver paired with one of the the selenium 2" fiberglass horns that bob crites sells. the specs say that the driver and horns are good from 400hz up so will this combo work with the passives that cross at 400hz ok? would this combo best the performance of simply upgrading to the trachorn 400s? thanks for any input

Yes, there is an overwhelming amount of information regarding all Khorn upgrades, especially the midrange horn upgrades. But that's how it should be! Audio reproduction is a subjective artform. There simply is no right or wrong in this hobby, and having lots of choices is what it's all about.

During my 20 year ownership of Khorns, I went through a long upgrade path, and I spent a great deal of money along the way. I don't regret any of it, that's the hobby - the never-ending process that is being an audiophile.

I am currently enjoying the best sound I have ever had from my Khorns, and a big part of that comes from the larger format, 2" throat horn and 2" outlet midrange driver combination for the midrange. The K55 is a remarkably good midrange driver, considering the age of the design and the simplicity of the construction, but I found that I had to get away from that type of driver to really get the most from the midrange in my own system, and I'm really glad I did it.

Decisions about any part of an audiophile's system are always driven by budget. My advice to you is to seek out and talk directly to at least a few people (not one or two) that have switched to the larger format. Many of those who have switched to the larger format had already upgraded to different midrange horns using the same smaller format K55 drivers in the past, and they can offer a particularly good perspective on the cost/benefit ratio.

You are welcome to contact me directly and I can put you in touch with dozens of people who are extremely happy that they upgraded to the larger format midrange.

Greg

[Guest " "]

my take , is that changing drivers and horns (from 1" to 2") is just another version of the hobby aspects of DIY audio. Some folks change tubes , some folks change cabinets, some folks changes wires, some folks change capacitors, etc, etc.

it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. there are kazillions of changes you can make and spend kazillions of bucks.

[Al Klappenberger]

I can give you 100 people who have saved $1000 by moving to a 1-inch horn and keeping the K55. The K400 is the bottleneck. I can also provide a 2-inch horn and driver actually designed for a 400 Hz crossover if you really want the best. Grafting the K55 on a 2-inch horn is a poor choice simply because the transition will not be correct.You can either stick it directly on the 2-inch throat and create an abrupt 1 to 2 inch transition that causes reflections back into the driver or you can make a very long conical taper transition that is not a proper Tractrix expansion. Either jury rig is inferior to a 1 inch to 1 inch union.

BUT: As Fritz points out, if you want a 2-inch system just becasue you want it and you got an extra $1000, the option is available!

Al K.

[Al Klappenberger]

Here's the facts of the matter. The plot compares a 1-inch horn with the K55, a 1-inch horn with a good quality 1-inch driver and a 2-inch with a quality driver. The winner is the 2-inch but not by a huge margin over the k55, but very significant over trying to use a modern high quality 1-inch driver intended for a 500 -800 Hz crossover. The levels here are 100 and 105 dB SPL. These are very high levels in your living room.

Al k.

[Rudy81]

I'm going to jump in here since I have experimented with many of the options you discussed. Al is correct in stating that the K55 is about the only 1" driver that will work well in the Khorn. I spent way too much time researching 1" drivers and even went as far as chaning the K55 to an older JBL 2470. I liked the smoothness of the JBL, but I was really pushing it with a Khorn on the low side. BTW, I was using Al's ALK crossover. Al is very much on target with his suggestion that you are better off swapping out the horn. That will make a much bigger difference than going to a 2" driver. At one point I had Al's Trachorns paired with my JBL's...I really enjoyed that combination. In my case, I continued my mods to include a 2" horn and driver since my goal eventually became going to a two way system. Problem is that not many drivers can span the 400Hz to 20kHz necessary in a Khorn.....at least ones I can afford.

I eventually left the Khorn platform all together, but I learned a whole lot by modifying the Khorns. See if you can borrow a Trachorn and drop it in your top hat with your K55....you'll love it.

My web page has a link to the changes I made on my old Khorns.

[PrestonTom]

Well, Al has his perspective on horns and drivers, and has provided a good explanation.

The basic difficulty is how to use a mid-range horn in the vicinity of 400-600 Hz (and still get high frequency extension at the same time). If this is done badly, you will get a great deal of distortion. So the question that needs to be clarified is whether you are aiming for a two-way system or a three-way system and are you willing to spend some time getting the crossover set up correctly?

In contrast to the above posts, I think a 2 inch horn (and maybe a 1.4 in) is a good way to go. I also think crossing the horn steeply also makes sense (especially if you cross at a lower frequency). Personally, I use electronic crossovers so using LR 24 or 48 dB/octave filters is trivial, plus they also provide time alignment (a big advantage).

Regarding the choice of horn, there is a bias toward a limited range aftermarket horns around this forum, but there are certainly more choices.

I would suggest looking at some of the Constant Directivity (CD) horns. Ones that I have heard and that I like (and are a reasonable size) are the Klipsch K-510, then Electrovoice HP series (eg, 640 or 940) and the Altec Manta Ray (series 2). The first three are 2 inch throat while the Altec is a 1.4 inch throat.

You will find that in combination with a used Electro-Voice crossover (or modified Behringer), these are probably less expensive than the usual recommendations you find around here.

Note, in general, a CD horn will interact differently with your room when compared to the alternatives. Consequently, they sound a bit different than non-CD horns (of course there may be other differences also).

Good Luck,

-Tom

[Arkytype]

Gee Al, (to paraphrase another forum member), none of the information you provided helped me in any way choose a midrange combination that I might like best for my Khorns. :>)

Are them stalactitic (or is it stalagmitic?)-looking pointy thangs on those graphs supposed to help me finger out what I need for my Klipschorns? That JBL driver graph has more spikes than a hedgehog in heat!

Heck, I just want ol' Slim Whitman's yodeling to be pure as the driven yellow snow and if you say a one-inch driver and a Trachorn is the best bang for the buck, then so be it, partner.

Lee

[Rudy81]

Tom, you make some good points as well. I was merely pointing out that as far as 1" drivers are concerned, not many will be able to replace the K55 and meet the Khorn mid requrirements as well as the K55 does. A 2" solution is certainly available and may be better, as long as you can tweak the crossover points and slopes. I beleive the OP wanted to stay with a simple passive crossover in 3-way. In that scenario, not many things work as well as the K55 and improvement can be had with a better horn, IMHO.

I had my Khorns for a while set up with a 2" driver in a 3 way configuration, but with an active crossover. Getting that 3 way to sound good involved a lot of time messing around with the crossover and slope configuration.

I now am using a P. Audio CD horn and driver in a two way setup LR 48dB slope and love the sound. Didn't take nearly as long to configure things as the Khorn did in 3 way. The bottom line in my case was to get a bass bin that could reach higher than 400Hz and sound good.

There are so many options and combinations out there it is nearly impossible to know which is best unless you try many of them. If the OP wants a 3 way passive setup in his Khorn, the K55 is hard to beat as the mid driver. I beleive that is what Al was trying to point out, unless I mis-read his post.

[dan4510]

I can't speak to the klipsch brand of horns/drivers but can put my 2 cents in about 1" versus 2" drivers.

I started out with a set of JBL l200 speakers. A 15 inch woofer and a 1 driver horn in one cabinet. It sounded honky so, I bought a jbl 2470 tractrix based set of horns and moved the driver to the top of the cabinet wired into the stock crossover.

That was a tremendous improvement, everything sounded natural instead of honky.

Next iteration was going to an active crossover 24db/octave at 800hz, same frequency as the jbl crossover.

I was not pleased as the top end seemed to drop off, so I added a jbl 2404 tweeter with a passive crossover and it sounded excellent.

But, when the music was loud the midrange seemed to not be as clear, so i had a chance to buy two older jbl 2482 drivers for a great price.

2 inch compression driver, with 4 inch phenolic diaphram. Also bought jbl 2380 tractrix based horns. Left all as was and simply plugged in the larger mid-horn combination and had the best sound ever out of that combination.

About 2000 I discovered Klipsch again and found a set of plans for the belle. Built a clone of the belle woofer horn with bob crites woofer.

Then went to a 350hz active crossover and used the jbl 2482 driver/2380 horn mid and 2404tweeter with the same passive crossover.

The published range on the jbl 2482 is 300hz to 4500hz.

This was the next step up, I did not have as much bass as the jbl ll200 setup, but with this setup and a good recording it seemed the speakers disappeared and the music was in the room, live!

Only other mod has been a diy sub to fill in the bottom in, now I am in nirvana!

For my 2 cents, going from a 1" driver to a 2" driver made a difference that was more than worth the mony, even if it cost a good bit for the extra amp, active crossover, and tweeters. My speakers can only be called "industrial" since I did not go beyond just making the bottom horn and staining it and using just piece of plywood to hand the midhorn and tweeter on. One day I will pretty it up, but thinking of a jubilee build first.

All of the jbl stuff is at the extreme top end of quality and the only time I have heard anything better was a set of klipschorns setup in a correct room with $25,000 of mcintosh equipment driving them.

For the total $ I havein the system I am extremely pleased.

Dan

[pocket.change]

Yep, It's a long and winding road that has been a great pleasure to walk. With decades of playing around with corner horn modifications, I'm going to enjoy my current setup awhile due to not being able to plan my next move.

First let me agree with Mr. Al, that 1" drivers do a very good job but, going the extra mile with 2" drivers is also a joy to behold. JBL 2482s w/Trachorns & Radian dia's (in my case) and JBL 2404H tweeters, open up the audio experence like morning light for a photograph. Add your favorite crossover's to the mix (i like my ALK Universals) and it's like single malt for your listening experience...

Go for it, you will not be disappointed.

[deafbykhorns]

how did you bolt the 2"drivers to the trachorns?

[pocket.change]

David made the horns.

[Al Klappenberger]

John,

"how did you bolt the 2"drivers to the trachorns"

I didn't! Trying to do that is silly! A true 2-inch throat Trachorn by Martinelli was used.

Al K.

[Guest David H]

how did you bolt the 2"drivers to the trachorns?

Pocket Change has the only pair of 2 inch Fastracs K's that I ever built.

Dave Harris

[Guest David H]

The Fastrac K is essentially a clone of Al's 2" Trachorn, I built them as an upgrade for my Cornscala's.

The horns performed excellent with my single 2 inch klipsch test driver, but I tried to get away with using a pair of low cost Pro-drivers in my Cornscala's, which was simply unacceptable.

You just can't skimp on the drivers, doesn't matter what size horn you use..

Dave

[Al Klappenberger]

Dave rescently sent me a clone he made a while ago of my 1-inch Trachorn horn. I haven't run any instrument test on it yet, but it looks like Dave builds good horns. Martinelli's horns are a bit heavier, but I don't think the difference is significant.

Here's the 2-inch Martinelli Trachorn 420 used in the IM distortion tests.The driver is the B&C DCM50.

Al K.

[kwingylee]

Great thread....looks like this may help solve my Jubilee tophat dilemma - dump the ALTEC 511Bs and go down this route?

[greg928gts]

To the OP

Actual quotes - I haven't changed anything - just one of a few that I know who have upgraded from 1" tractrix horns to the 2" format, and like me they hear a substantial difference in sound quality, more so than switching from stock to 1" tractrix.

"I’m finally ready to buy the V-Trac horn upgrade for my K-Horns to replace the horns I bought from Al Klap."

"Funny that he’s making a 2” horn now when I read his words that he doesn’t see any benefit in a 2” over a 1”..........2” reigns supreme!"

"I get amazing imaging from the mid and highs with great bass response."

Greg