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Heresy III - Help


Beta

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Have you tried using plain old reciever like HK 430 or maybe just a new reciever borrow one and try it. I noticed in your system you dont have any tone controls at all, am i reading that right? I use to use a 600 hundred dollar when new Yamaha 80 watts and i got an old HK 430 with 24 watts and it blows that Yammy away power and sound wise.So just an idea to try.Rick

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I have experienced the same "fatigue" that you are describing with my Klipsch (KHorns and Heresy IIs) when ever I have
driven them with SS.
Your Pre, Amp, and CDP are all very nice pieces but I think (just my opinion) they would fall into the neutral / accurate
category vs. the warmer / musical side of things.
For me, tubes have eliminated fatigue on all but the worst quality recordings in my collection.

I know you said you are not prepared to wade into the glass pool but I think you should at least take a step off the sand
and stick your toe in... find a buddy with a tube amp and give it a try and see if it suites your ears better.

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  • Tone controls can help. My late lamented Luxman (best solid state unit I ever had) had three turnover frequences for bass, three for treble, providing a range of control that ranged from very subtle to fairly dramatic. It also had a "Low Boost" switch with two choices of frequencies that it would be effective below. My Klipschorns sometimes, with some recordings, can sound overly bright. With other recordings, not bright enough! With the Luxman I would play each new piece of music "flat" for the first several playings, then try some EQ. I would say that most CDs improved with carefully selected EQ.
  • Since you say your HIIIs sound fine when at lower SPL, I'll bet you are overdriving the electronics, and need some that won't overload at the volumes you like, or some that overload more gracefully.
  • Another possibility is you are turning up bad recordings to the point that harsh IM or odd-order Harmonic distortion in the recordings is more detectable. Horn loaded midrange and treble speakers are more revealing of some kinds of distortion than all but the best of the non-horn types perhaps because they produce fewer and lower magnitude spurious sidebands to mask the distortion in the recordings.
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Beta,

OK, I'm going to say it........ I have Heresy 3s, I'm familar with the Parasounds and your Cambridge CD player. That should be a good combo but it can sound harsh (bright) with the wrong cables. In fact your system is perfect for Heresys, nothing needs changing there. Unfortunately I've not heard the MIT Shotgun cables you have but their website does use the terms "crystal clear mids and highs". That would not be going in the right direction for Heresys. Anyway, it's time for a warmer cable set-up. So here it is, use a Cardis 300B on your amp and some AQ type 4 on your speakers. These are not expensive cables but they are the right ones for your set-up.

Thanx, Russ

OK, you zipcord users can now open the verbal thrashing.

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I know I gave you a hard time when you were new here (sorry) but you are funny. Yes

No problemo dtel. I've been an audio guy for many years so it would be hard for someone to talk me out of something I hear for myself. They say I have a pretty good ear, whatever that is, lol. Anyway, it's kinda funny, over here on the Klipsch forum nobody does much with cabling but over on the planner speaker forum (where I'm in my element), guys are floating their cables in air for added benifits. I can't say I fit in with either crowd. The OP has nice gear that doesn't need changing, so where else do we go? In the old days we just bought new gear but it's kinda hard to pitch a 6000 buck amp when a 50 buck cable might help tilt a system in the right direction. What's a guy to do.........

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I don't doubt cables can make a difference, but I would have to make a lot of changes in electronics to get to the point where the wires were the weakest link.

And then I have to consider my half dead, completely abused ears. [:$]

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And then I have to consider my half dead, completely abused ears. Embarrassed

I've said this many times, if you don't/can't hear a worthwhile difference with a new component, don't waste your money. That goes the same for a 5 buck cable or a 5000 buck pre-amp. And as I said before sometimes the 5 buck cable is the right one..........but if you don't try something, you'll never know.

Thanx, Russ

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They say I have a pretty good ear, whatever that is, lol.

Well, it looks nice in your avatar...

Anyway, it's kinda funny, over here on the Klipsch forum nobody does much with cabling but over on the planner speaker forum (where I'm in my element), guys are floating their cables in air for added benefits.

I guess a few "cable guys" could differentiate between power that comes to the house overhead from a pole versus an underground service. Hmm, it might be as important as a home with good corners!
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I owned a DacMagic for a while and got rid of it. I found the thing way too bright, even on my tubed gear! And not "bright" in a detailed, revealing way - more like a grating, harsh glare that I just couldn't get rid of. I initiallly blamed it on my new (12/2009) Heresy III's, then my SET amp, then the source - but with each turn, I ruled out these usual suspects.Look into other well-regarded DAC's in the same price range, or even an NOS non-oversampling model if you purposely want to seek out a darker sound.

If one does not like tubes, but want something that will mate well with Klipsch Heritage gear, I would steer towards an amp based on MOSFET's on even a class-D chip amp vs. the typical bioplar transistor, high negative feedback (NFB), ultra-low distortion model. You can always have too much of a good thing - too much NFB and too high of a damping factor is not only overkill for a well-damped horn, but will make it sound pinched and constricted. This leads to whiny, loud mids, feeble bass and screechy highs. Remember, when these speakers were designed (1950's), the typical output impedance of tubed amps (by that point, pentode push-pull models using global NFB or an ultralinear arrangement) was in the .1 to 1 ohm range, giving a damping factor between 8 and 80 with a perfectly flat impedance, 8-ohm speaker. (Note: no speaker is flat, especially around the crossover points!). A typical SET (single-ended triode) or SEP (single-ended pentode) amp, by then a very outdated concept, had a Z-out of 2-4 ohms, leading to an even lower damping factor. Recent solid-state amps feature damping factors in the hundreds, with a Z-out in the hundredths of one ohm. This means that speakers designed for lower damping factors are going to sound more different on newer gear than perhaps ever intended.

I've opted for a "happy medium" myself - the amp I built is a modified version of the Bottlehead S.E.X. SET amp, but with a little bit of negative feedback and different transformers for better damping. Z-out is around .5 ohm, so I get a damping factor of at least 10, which seems to be perfect for the Heresy. I don't care for them on solid-state - they really lose their magic on newer amps. But YMMV.

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DIgital disks (except for SACDs and a few painstakingly and
expensively mixed & sweetened DVDs and Blu-rays) seem to be getting
worse, and revealing speakers (like the Heritage line) witll ruthlessly
expose them. Speakers that gild the lilly, or are just plain mushier,
will hide the problem. If a cross section of audiophile recordings,
such as those from Chesky, Mobile Fidelity, Stereophile, Crystal Clear
Recordings, etc. sound good -- and not too bright --- on your system,
then you might just have had bad luck with most of your recordings.


BUT,
the fact that the over-brightness gets worse when you turn it up still
makes me suspect your amplification ... unless it's just a matter of
hearing acuity being better at higher SPL. I use HIIs as surrounds, but
gave them a workout up front when I first got them, and they showed no
increase in brightness as they were turned up, in fact sounded a little
better balanced when turned up, perhaps due to the effect Fletcher &
Munson (and others) documented. I believe people when they say the
HIIIs are even better, and have a bit more bass, even though I haven't heard
them. My Klipschorns also sound better turned up (producing about 95
-100 dB during very loud passages (Radio Shack meter at the listening
position, "c" "fast") along with peaks that the needle ballistics don't
allow to be shown, of probably 113 dB, or so. With a superb recording
like Crystal Clear's "Fanfare for the Common Man," ridiculously &
dangerously high levels can be achieved without over brightness, or
harshness.



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I rarely respond, but I noticed a side comment somwhere about your hearing. I have HIIIs, and have not had the problems you describe. As an audiologist, I'm wondering if you're experiencing something called "recruitment", and this can be associated with even mild hearing loss. Recruitment is the subjective experience of an abnormal growth in loudness, and occurs at the cochlear level. That would be why everything sounds great til 9 o'clock position on the volume control, then - bam! ...too harsh/loud/bright, etc. There are simple tests for this that can be done during an audiological exam. Oh... Since October is National Audiology Month, you (and everyone else) have another reason to check the piece of gear that counts the most - your ears! ...and no, I'm not drumming up business (no pun intended) - I work solely with Deaf/Hard of Hearing kids, in the public sector. Just some thoughts. Good luck! :-)

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100db,

A belated welcome to the forum, sir! Your input here is most welcome. I myself have mysterious (to me) hearing loss in my left ear. If I recall, it drops off pretty suddenly around 4kHz (20 db?). Two years ago I went through a battery of tests (including a brain MRI to rule out a tumor), but nothing really explained what had happened. I'm a carpenter, so environmental trauma was suspect, but it's weird it's not bilateral. I had guessed it might have something to do with driving with the window down, but my ENT said that was pretty unlikely. Wouldn't it be cool if someone invented hearing aids that automatically would e.q. music for ones hearing? Kind of like those multi-channel AV receivers that use a microphone to set-up the optimal sound for a particular listening position...

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Dear 100 dB,

An audiologist audiophile .... what an opportunity! I hope you don't get too many questions!

Like others with aging ears, my hearing is showing some high frequency roll-off in threshold tests, BUT relatively loud music -- such as cymbal crashes -- sound as rich in high frequencies as they ever did. I suspect that a least for me, there has been less degradation at higher volumes than at very low ones. I'm not referring to the Fletcher-Munson effect alone, which would apply to people of any age, but I'm suspecting less high frequency loss with age for loud music and transients ... SO ... what is the relationship between the hearing frequency response curves taken at the threshold of a person's hearing (the kind my audiologist performed years ago), and a hearing frequency response curve taken at:

  1. the range of SPLs found in medium to loud music (perhaps 75 to 100 dB)
  2. at the SPL of milleseconds long musical peaks (perhaps 100 to 115 dB)?
Does hearing temporarily improve with higher cortical arousal, such as that provided by musical climaxes?
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I sincerely appreciate all the responses to my post. They are truly appreciated. I absolutely agree that the "fatigue" or "brightness" I expereince is dependent on the recording.

I rarely respond, but I noticed a side comment somwhere about your hearing. I have HIIIs, and have not had the problems you describe. As an audiologist, I'm wondering if you're experiencing something called "recruitment", and this can be associated with even mild hearing loss. Recruitment is the subjective experience of an abnormal growth in loudness, and occurs at the cochlear level. That would be why everything sounds great til 9 o'clock position on the volume control, then - bam! ...too harsh/loud/bright, etc. There are simple tests for this that can be done during an audiological exam. Oh... Since October is National Audiology Month, you (and everyone else) have another reason to check the piece of gear that counts the most - your ears! ...and no, I'm not drumming up business (no pun intended) - I work solely with Deaf/Hard of Hearing kids, in the public sector. Just some thoughts. Good luck! :-)

100db,

I don't know if you are serious or not, but your timing could not have been better. My ears actually are quite tweaked. Growing up here in Southern California I spent a significant amount of time in the ocean. I don't know the correct technical term, but I have a terrible case "surfer's" ear. Everytime any doctor looks inside my ears they are amazed by the abnormal bone growth in my ear canals (for those of you that may not believe there is such a thing as surfer's ear, do a google search). I am prone to severe ear infections and can count on 1 or 2 doozies a year. Nothing like the feeling of an ice pick to the head. Fortunately, I can usually fix the situation with Cipro HC Otic.

As fate would have it, I am currently in the midst of recovering from one of the more severe infections if have experienced. Had to visit the doctor just last Tuesday. Unfortunately, it took oral antibotics to knock this last one out.

Call me chicken, but I just don't have the courage that some of my friends with the same problem have. I know guys that have had their ears "drilled" to have the abnormal bone growth removed. Maybe it's just me, but having the my ears almost sliced off my head, flipped forward and then having a doctor stick a drill in my head/ear is rather daunting.

The above being said, I have no doubt that the weakest link in my rig is my hearing. However, I don't think I have a recruitment problem. I am simply not aware of being sensitive to any other load noise sources. My amp is 250 watts RMS per channel and has a capaicty of 60 amperes peak per channel. Obviously, speakers in the Heritage line are extremely sensitive. Therefore, 9 o'clock on the volume dial on my preamp would probably make most normal folks a bit uncomfortable. I know my wife won't stay in our living room if I push the volume to that level.

Nonetheless, great suggestion to have my hearing checked. Probably something I should have done long ago.

Again, thank you all for taking the time to offer me your thoughts and suggestions.

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